Marinette Boat Forum

I need a sanity check. I spent too much time in the bilges working on a "starter problem." It was struggling to turn my port engine. It would turn, then stop like too much compression, or weak starter. Batteries were due, so I changed them. No help. Pulled the starter, and the shop that rebuilt it a couple years ago said it was good. For brevity I won't go through how I ended up having 3 shops come to the same conclusion. Tracked down people who Prestolite says now build the starter, and decided there was an excessive voltage drop (external to the starter). Cleaning and testing cables found excessive drop equally distributed across the circuit (no one cable/connector worse than any other). We felt 2 gauge wire cable was inadequate for the 365 amps the starter was computed to be pulling (higher than the estimated 200ish amps if delivered voltage had been better), so I upgraded to 2/0 on the return circuit, and 1/0 on the positive side (couldn't have gotten 2/0 through the raceways). It turned better, but still wouldn't start.

I had pulled the plugs a couple times, just to see if the engine would spin freely. It did. I tagged the wires at the plug end to insure I put them back where they came from, but now I was beginning to doubt it had actually run for the "marine mechanic" who "tuned it" for me before all this started, so I checked the distributor, and found the centrifugal advance stuck. Unstuck it, found #1 TDC (via thumb on plug hole while turning the engine), checked rotor orientation, and found the #1, and #6 wires reversed. The rest did not seem to follow what I would have guessed to be similar wrong positioning. Unfortunately I didn't note where they actually went, only noted for sure the #1, and #6 were reversed. So I followed the order clearly marked on the information plate, and in the Chrysler Marine manual for a CCW engine. The engine turned normally now, but still didn't start.

Now here's where I need the sanity check. SAE, and every marine reference I can find says engine rotation is determined by looking at the "output end" of the engine (the flywheel). Additionally, numerous references say the port engine "uses the standard automotive CCW rotation." The Chrysler Marine manual, and the engine plate both show the CW, and CCW firing order transposed, as if determining rotation from the front of the engine (like some auto manuals do, because they think auto mechanics would get confused otherwise). Once I changed the order of the other 6 wires (#1 & #6 are the same on both CW, and CCW rotation) she fired right up.

So am I misinterpreting engine rotation, or are the Chrysler manual, and engine info plate reversed?

Hello, First. This can get very confusing. The Chrysler engine plate will list a right hand turn ,and a left hand turn. Butt this is the over all with the transmission. On a 1to1 and 1.5 trans the engine and trans turn the same direction when in forward. on the 1.9to1 and 2.0 to 1 they are reverse. And they are looking from the rear. The output. The only way to really tell is by looking at the front . A standard rotation "car" the front pullie will turn clock wise. Normally the port side with a 1to1 or 1.5 to 1 will be standard. If it is a 1.9to1 or 2.0 to 1 it will be reversed. Joe

If it is like a 318 the ccw motor will have a spacer under the distributor.

Joe. and wmgill
My 37' is set up with 360's and reversing transmissions. When I first looked at the set up I thought that someone had put the engines on the wrong side.. I had the props reconditioned and did not mark port or starboard on them I installed them on the wrong
order and was quickly set straight by on of the knowledgle captains in the club.. There are very few boats that run their props in reverse direction.

This may be helpful.

http://www.ebasicpower.com/faq/starterrotate.htm

bill

Maybe I wasn't clear. The port engine turns top to outboard, and it has a nice big arrow indicating "Direction of rotation." The plate (and manual) give a CW, and a CCW firing order, nothing about right hand, or left hand. I know it is "standard rotation", and which direction it actually turns. By all definitions I found (SAE, Marine engine spec, etc) if the flywheel turns top to left when facing it from behind the engine (which it does here), the engine is said to turn CCW. That is also the "standard rotation" found in cars. The proper firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. The plate, and manual show that as the firing order for the CW engine. The only way this engine could be considered to be turning CW, is if viewed from the front, and the pulley rotation is used. I understand some auto shop manuals use pulley rotation because the mechanic is usually facing the engine from in front, and they think it will confuse a garage mechanic is if he or she sees the pulley turning clockwise on an engine that is said to be turning counter-clockwise, but even several auto references say this is a CCW, standard rotating engine. I would think Chrysler Marine would follow marine convention, or the SAE standard, not the "some auto shop" naming convention.

I have put an entry in my boat notes: CCW firing order given on info plate, and in engine manual is for the CW engine, and vise versa.

Look on the top of the intake manifold, most of the time the firing order is cast into the top, by the carb. Then the rotor turns in the direction that you can turn it a bit. So just decide which spot is going to be #1 and put the rest of the wires on in order--Ed

Hello, We are on the same page. Butt you can not all ways go by the big orange arrow. The arrow is prop rotation when in forward. "Not engine rotation". From the factory their is a tag on the back of the engine by the distributor . It will read some thing like LM318R for right hand prop rotation, and LM318L for left hand prop rotation. This tag will not tell you engine rotation. Joe

No the arrow indicates the engine rotation (I think it states "engine rotation", but I will verify that today), which can be observed by watching the crankshaft pulley. The info plate shows:

CW firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
CCW firing order 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8

Notice #1 and #6 in both firing orders. When I discovered they had reversed #1 and #6, I moved all the wires according to the info plate. The problem is I used the SAE definition of CCW/CW, so I put them 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8 because by definition this is a CCW engine. I was wrong, because the info plate is wrong in its definition of CW, and CCW. The whole reason for standards is so everyone is singing from the same sheet. When Chrysler (or anyone) deviates from spec because of a common (mis)understanding, they should note that deviation e.g. "CW (as viewed from the pulleys) firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2" If I was an auto mechanic, who had been using 1-8-4..., or "left hand", I would have blindly put them in in the correct order, and never cared if it was left hand, right hand, CW, or CCW. I'm not, and even if I was, I (like Einstein) never trust anything to memory that can be written down (that's why I keep a "boat notes" journal).

This link is not to the SAE standard, but it agrees with that standard, and almost everything else I found. It pretty clearly demonstrates the problem with the Chrysler documentation.

http://www.ebasicpower.com/faq/rotate.htm


I will look for some of the other markings people have mentioned here, but my point remains, if you rely on the Chrysler documentation be aware of their deviation from standardized terminology.

If you think this is confusing you ought to see the way Chris Craft did SB Chevies years ago. To get them lower in the bilge, the ran the trans off the damper pulley end and added another distributor in the bell housing area. Weird!

Jeff