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Switching to 120 volt refrigerator
bpboater
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 09, 2009 5:38:36 AM(UTC)
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My daughter's 12 volt/120 volt refrigerator has quit working and is 20 years on her Wellcraft Gran Sport. I am switching her over to a 120 volt Kenmore fridge and Tripp Lite inverter. I could not find any small refrigerators where the cooling coils were on the back of the fridge. Now, they put the heat exchanger coils just under the outer skin of the refrigerator sides and top. So, they are no longer recommended for under counter use. They are supposed to be free standing installations only.

Well, it is going under the counter, and I am going to add two 12 volt fans to circulate air around the sides and top when they get warm. To keep the fans from running all the time and further draining the batteries, I ordered some temperature snap action switches that can be glued to the top of the refrigerator. These switches will turn the fans on at 45C (about 113F) to help get rid of the heat. I had to buy 12 of these switches, so I will have a few extras if you need one.

I also measured the amperage draw of the refrigerator before installation. On cold start, the draw is almost 5 amps at 120 volts -- about 600 watts. It quickly drops to 1.2 amps (144 watts) until the pressures in the system normalize, then the draw drops to 0.75 amps (90 watts). The Norcolds draw about 45 watts. So, on a 12 volt inverter, it will draw about 7.5 amps plus 1 amp efficiency loss, or 8.5 amps when it is running. We are installing a 700 watt inverter with surge capabilities to 1400 watts.

This new fridge is so, so much quiter than the old Norcold. I will let you know how it works after it is installed this weekend.

Paul
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fastjeff
#2 Posted : Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:56:29 AM(UTC)
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That should work swell, but my Magic Chef has the coils on the back.

Jeff

PS: I too use a fan blowing air on the coils. Works much better that way. (Kudos to the person who suggested that.)

"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

AlumiJim
#3 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:35:03 AM(UTC)
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When I replaced my old 12/120 a few years ago, I stayed with the new dual voltage fridge. The coil issue is almost universal, with all of the new energy codes. Luckily, the new fridge is not as tall as the old one.

I built up a channel below it, allowing air to flow under and back up behind the unit. I'm sure the addition of a 12V fan helped with the air flow, but natural convection is probably even more beneficial. Cool air near the floor is drawn under and up toward the warmer fridge and bulkhead. To make sure I had actual air movement, I cut a couple round grommets in the shelf above the microwave just in case.


JIM
Alexandria, VA
1989 32' Sedan
'Gammelby'
Friendship, MD
bpboater
#4 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:44:54 AM(UTC)
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Well, as the install date gets closer, I opened the power inverter to see if the on/off switch could be relocated to a convenient location around the countertop. It can't -- it will void the warranty if I modify the switch. So, I ordered a continuous duty 85 amp relay solenoid from Texas Industrial Electric Company, and I will use the old 12 volt refrigerator switch in the boat's power panel to tun the inverter on and off.

While I was nosing around in the inverter, I noticed that the white 120 volt ground wire was tied directly to the 120 volt green ground wire. I was a little concerned that this defeats the green separate from white ground wire design. But, I guess it will only bridge the white and green for whatever is plugged into the inverter, not the rest of the boat. I just want to make sure that there is no chance of electrifying the water through the green ground bonding system on the through hull fittings.

I think the white and green are also bridged when the generator is supplying power to the boat. Otherwise, the green and white are kept separate till they connect to the power pedestal on the dock.

Paul
pfhlaw
#5 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:23:30 AM(UTC)
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Paul:
The refridgerator frame or case might be grounded. If the plug is a 3 conductor grounded plug, they usually are. If so, bolting the fridge in place to the aluminum floor or any part of the hull would defeat the floating ground and bring the hull into the AC circuit by bonding it with the neutral conductor.
Peter
1981 32' sedan bridge
twin Chrysler 360 cu. in. 250 hp engines
Raw water cooled
Nimbus II
Home port: New Buffalo, MI
bpboater
#6 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:49:02 AM(UTC)
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Peter,
The installation instructions for the inverter require that the inverter case be grounded to the hull. So, I am sure the white wire is then grounded to the hull. Is this a problem?
Paul
fastjeff
#7 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 2:11:11 PM(UTC)
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Don't forget to install a 250 to 400 amp fuse in the DC wiring on that inverter. (West Marine sells the fuses and holders.) My first inverter shorted out inside and fried the fuse, and boy am I glad it was there!


Jeff
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dougrose
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 10, 2009 2:15:33 PM(UTC)
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I have looked at several inverters and they all seem to connect the output white neutral to the green ground.

With my isolation transformer, I connect only the hot and neutral to the primary windings. The green ground goes only to the transformer case for safety, and the case does not touch the hull and is not connected to anything else. The secondary windings are connected to hot and neutral in the boat's wiring, and the neutral is connected to the green ground in the boat wiring through a resistor. There is no connection from shore power green to boat green.

Since the inverter runs on DC, you already have no connection to shore power green, and you might have no connection from battery negative in to output power green. If this is true, then you can just connect the green to the hull, and everything should be OK. If the battery negative in is connected to the green output, then you might just want to let the ac side ground through the negative battery lead, which goes back to the battery and then to the hull. There should only be one ground point on the hull for all power.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
AlumiJim
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:48:39 AM(UTC)
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While I was nosing around in the inverter, I noticed that the white 120 volt ground wire was tied directly to the 120 volt green ground wire. I was a little concerned that this defeats the green separate from white ground wire design. But, I guess it will only bridge the white and green for whatever is plugged into the inverter, not the rest of the boat. I just want to make sure that there is no chance of electrifying the water through the green ground bonding system on the through hull fittings.

White is not a ground wire, it is neutral. Green - ground must be continuous back to shore, never tied to white. There's often confusion because of our panel boxes at home, where both the green - ground buss and the white - neutral buss are both in direct contact with the metal box, therefore with each other.

For sake of argument, let's call our home panel box "shore". We never interconnect green and white throughout the house, they are separated until everything returns to that big, safe panel box. The green is there to return a short back to the box, not to carry power to our lights and appliances.


JIM
Alexandria, VA
1989 32' Sedan
'Gammelby'
Friendship, MD
dougrose
#10 Posted : Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:05:13 AM(UTC)
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"green - ground must be continuous back to shore..."

Most Marinettes have an isolator in the green lead between the shorepower and the green (hull) connection in the boat. This is supposed to block stray dc currents while allowing larger ac voltages to pass to ensure safety. See http://www.geocities.com...ette_Wiring_Generic.pdf for my best information on the "typical" Marinette system.

When one generates ac inside the boat, then the inverter is the source and acts like the home panel box - green ground and white neutral can be connected together there. And most inverter manufacturers seem to do just that. And the green ground can be connected to the hull. But of course as Jim points out green and white do not connect anywhere else.

I am very interested in this topic, and in what others have done, since I would like to use an inverter away from the dock to keep stuff running. Be sure to post how things work out.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
bpboater
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:50:52 PM(UTC)
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I called the inverter manufacturer (Tripp Lite) and asked to have their electrical engineer who manages these inverter deisgns to call me. My biggest concern is that the refrigerator starts delivering the 120 vac to the green ground that is bonded to all the through hull fittings. If you are swimming in the water, is there ac present?

Paul
fastjeff
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:25:23 PM(UTC)
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Not a problem. Every AC device on your boat is set up the same way.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

dougrose
#13 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2009 12:26:54 AM(UTC)
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If your thruhull fittings are original bronze, as mine are, they are insulated from the hull to prevent forming a battery from the bronze-water-aluminum mixture. Those fittings should not, as far as I know, be attached to the green ground. If they are, then current can flow between the bronze and the aluminum (because the green ground goes back to the hull) and the aluminum will be the loser.

If your thruhull fittings have been replaced with something like Marelon, then there are no worries.

The question I would ask the Triplite engineer is whether the ac output is isolated from the dc input, or whether the dc return (negative) is connected to the output green ground. I suspect that the latter is the case.

If the ac output is actually isolated, the connect the green ground to hull and the frame of your reefer, hook up the black and white, and you are all set.

If the ac output is tied to the dc input (connected from dc black to ac green) then your green is already tied to the hull. Just run green to the frame of your reefer, and hook up the black and white. If the frame of your reefer is already connected to hull through a reliable connection such as bolts or screws, then you do not need the green ground at all, it is already connected. Best marine practice calls for isolating the frame from the hull, and using the green ground.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
Roger2
#14 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2009 1:22:29 AM(UTC)
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If I understand the problem correctly, The white or netural (AC side) is connected to the frame & Green in the inverter.

This, although not the desirable situation, I don't think it is a big problem. The Green wire is a redundant safety wire, that is connected to earth @ the power distribution center. The White netural is also connected, grounded at power Company transformer.

The hull of a boat is NOT electrified by this connection even if both White & Green are connected to the hull. The risk is that if a white netural becomes open the green will continue to carry the load & you won't know that a problem exists. Then if the White & Green both become open to shore, you now have an Electrified hull.

Since we are talking about an inverter here an not shore power I don't think it's a big deal. If you are concerned simply disconnect the green @ The inverter & Ref.


My 2 cents!

Hope this is helpfull.
Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
bpboater
#15 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2009 2:41:21 AM(UTC)
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Roger,
I was thinking of leaving the green ground disconnected too, but the installation instructions strongly warn against this. Still waiting for Tripp Lite to call.

Paul
dougrose
#16 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2009 11:27:57 PM(UTC)
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If your appliance has a short from hot black to its case, the entire item becomes hot and putting a hand on it while also touching ground could be a fatal experience. To prevent this, the frame of your appliance is connected to ground green. When the short occurs, current flows through the green to ground and trips the breaker. Normally, the return current is carried by the neutral white wire. I believe that you could leave the green off the appliance if the frame were grounded to hull through some other method, but that would violate ABYC standards. Better to have the green as a backup, better yet to isolate the appliance case from the hull and use the green ground for safety.

The idea behind isolating the appliance frame from the hull is to prevent stray current from finding its way back to the source through the hull itself. This is often important but Marinettes are welded into one piece electrically and so stray currents from point to point within the hull probably will do no harm. Still, it is important to follow ABYC and Coast Guard standards. I know of two boat fires where the insurance company would not pay after their inspectors found out-of-code wiring in the wreckage.

At any rate, I plan to wire the green to the hull at one point only when I put the inverter in (it is still dotted lines on the schematic). The only question I have is whether or not the green is connected to the dc input black. If that is so, then the green is already grounded to the hull through the dc system.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
Barkleydave
#17 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:20:03 PM(UTC)
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Remember that your green wire is connected to your galvanic isolator. That prevents DC current leakage.

NEVER DISONNECT THE GREEN GROUND WIRE!!

Now the best and safest approach/test is to isnure that your AC input is a GFIC curcit. If your boat does not have them put them in. If there is any (approx. .006 amps) not returning throuh the white wire the curcuit will trip assuming there is an AC leak throuh the ground /green wire. One of first retros I did on mine was replace outlets curcuits with GFCI. My dock is electrified through a 240 volt 30 amp GFCI main breaker also to protect the dock curcuits. The 240 breakers are expensive costly approx. 125 bucks a breaker. They will not fit in our Big M panels.

Check these GFCI outlets at least monthly they are inexpensive and often go bad in our environment.

Save boating,
dave
None
Roger2
#18 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 2:58:17 AM(UTC)
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We were only talking about the green that is tied to white on the inverter, not the whole boat.

Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
bpboater
#19 Posted : Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:12:08 AM(UTC)
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Well, after waitng a couple weeks for the electrical engineer at Tripp Lite to get in touch with me, I made another call to technical support. It turns out they had no record of my original call. I explained my concern to the tech support person who did not really understand what the issue was. I asked if I could speak with an electrical engineer or manager in charge of the product line. The answer - no, our engineers do not talk with customers. So, I asked for the corporate officer in charge of electrical design. She gave me his name, so I am going to send him a letter with a diagram and let him address the question.

In the meantime, I looked at the wiring and operation of some other marine inverters. These inverters couple the green and white wire while the inverter is turned on, but have a circuit to uncouple the green and white when the system is returned to shore power. So, when the inverter is running, the green and white are the same potential. When it is turned off, the system returns to at least 25,000 ohms resistance between the green and white.

In the case of the refrigerator, it is the only appliance plugged into the inverter, and the refrigerator is isolated from ground - no screws mounting it to a metal frame. So, I am going to ground the inverter case directly to the battery ground terminal, which ultimately returns to the hull.

Paul
jralbert
#20 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:23:32 AM(UTC)
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"...I asked for the corporate officer in charge of electrical design. She gave me his name, so I am going to send him a letter with a diagram and let him address the question..."

Did they ever reply?
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
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