logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

2 Pages12>
Alternator in trouble (jinxed?)
jralbert
#1 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 4:29:33 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
Out for a short ride Saturday with a marina mate, he notices volt meters and remarks that with both showing only 12 volts there is a problem. I tell him that it's the normal reading and I don't think there is a problem. Five minutes later, wham, he jinxed it -- the starboard meter drops to under 10 v and that ain't normal. We head back to port before the battery dies.

Also needed to mention problem B: when I got onto the boat just before taking the ride, the stbd battery bank (2 batteries in parallel) was dead and I turned on the battery charger for a just few minutes before heading out. Using the solenoid xover switch, the stbd engine cranked over smartly.

Overnight Saturday, the stbd bank charged fully. Today, I put a meter on the batteries and it showed 12.6 v at rest (after that full charge) but the only same voltage with the engine running, not the expected 13.5 or so volts.

That says to me that there is an alternator problem. It's a rebuilt unit put into service only about a year ago. Tips on how to proceed are welcome. I may have rebuilt the old, original unit as a precaution so there may be a backup on the shelves.

The belt: Is it tight enough? I ask because I can turn the alternator by hand,
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
Sponsor
Please Register : To weed out spammers, new members may not post until approved. An email is usually sent after approval. This forum is for Marinette Owners and other aluminum boat boaters who wish to share boating information. Aluminum Roamer owners are also welcome. (Do not post content you do not have the right to post and mass (robots) posters are unwelcome. We also have a marine electronics page and lots of Chrysler Engine info. State by what permission you copy content and give credit properly.) The site is now fixed with some more Chrysler information. We have space for pictures on the new location. Use shinkpic to autochange size http://www.onthegosoft.com/sp_download.htm

Great Sites - http://www.marinette.com Marinette Company

http://web.me.com/dougmrose/Doug_Roses_Website/Welcome.html

http://fastjeff.tripod.com/ Repair Tricks and Techniques for Marinettes

http://www.greatlakesmarinetteclub.com/

PLEASE post in the appropriate folder. Please, do not post your actual email address in publicly readable websites. The first rule is be a class act.

fastjeff
#2 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 10:21:10 PM(UTC)
fastjeff

Rank: Administration

Medals: aluminum star: For Marinette Owners Everywhere above the call of duty

Groups: Admin2, Admin2, Admin, Administration, Member
Joined: 12/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,133
Points: 5,732

Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 30 post(s)
1. Fully charged batteries should be 13.5 to 13.65 volts.

2. You need to check them with the charger OFF

3. Alternators are not designed to 'bring back' a near dead battery. It takes HOURS of running to do that, and

4. Check the water levels in your batteries. I bet you'll be stunned at what you find!

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Rick100
#3 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:33:51 PM(UTC)
Rick100

Rank: Dedicated Tin Star

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 74
Points: 228

If you can just the alt by hand the belt is very loose and possibly glazed up. With the engine running at a fast idle you should see 13.8 to 14.2 volts at the battery. Alternator belts need to be very tight and you should be able to turn the engine over by hand with the alt. Rick
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
Barkleydave
#4 Posted : Monday, June 29, 2009 12:14:03 AM(UTC)
Barkleydave

Rank: Marinette Royal Aluminum Poster (300+) posts

Groups: Member
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 460
Points: -618

Thanks: 3 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 6 post(s)
Our remote regulators are often part of the problem. I dealt with it by changing to new one wire alternators. You have to run new heavier wire from At. to you battery banks but they work much better. Slightly larger output 62 amps but still single belt. Masco was an excellent source.

dave
None
jralbert
#5 Posted : Monday, June 29, 2009 2:37:11 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
1. Fully charged batteries should be 13.5 to 13.65 volts.
ooh. Mine are just under 13 after a 14 hour charger session.
2. You need to check them with the charger OFF
that I did.
3. Alternators are not designed to 'bring back' a near dead battery. It takes HOURS of running to do that
Right, didn't expect it to charge in minutes.
4. Check the water levels in your batteries. I bet you'll be stunned at what you find!
thnx. I topped just a few wks ago but will recheck.
Jeff

If you can just the alt by hand the belt is very loose and possibly glazed up. Rick
ok, thnx...I now know have a pair of loose (but new) belts. As a parting shot yesterday, gave both belts a few squirts of "belt dressing".. but don't think they are glazed

Dave..will look into new alternator .. again..thnx
.

Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
Rick100
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:51:29 AM(UTC)
Rick100

Rank: Dedicated Tin Star

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 74
Points: 228

Joel, Belt dressing is a big no no. All that does is make a big and hard to clean up mess and if you get to much on it will cause the belt to slip even more along with some noise. The best thing to do is to clean the mess up and properly adjust the belts. New belts will stretch after a running for a while and will need to be readjusted. Check you batteries with a hydrometer and look for one or two cells with a low reading. An even better test would be a load test as this will test the internal battery connections along with the cells. A properly set up alternator will do a much better and much faster job of charging a dead battery that a 10 amp battery charger. The exception to this would be a late model automotive alternator which is not happy doing a major recharge. The ones on our boats do a good job of recharging a dead battery. One safety note -- a dead battery that is in poor condition will gas off when charged and this gas is very explosive so watch the sparks. DO NOT CONNECT OR DISCONNECT ANY THING FROM A BATTERY THE IS GASSING.
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
dougrose
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:16:45 AM(UTC)
dougrose

Rank: Marinette Royal Aluminum Poster (300+) posts

Groups: Member, Administration, Admin
Joined: 12/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,330
Points: 1,740

Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 20 post(s)
Marinette wired the voltmeters to the same ground wire used by everything else in the panel. This causes a voltage drop in the ground that makes the voltmeter read low. Additionally, the hot side is connected to purple ignition voltage, which is lower than the actual battery voltage. Ideally, you would wire the voltmeter directly across the battery. This isn't very practical.

You could try wiring the voltmeter negative directly back to the engine block, and connecting the positive to the ignition terminal on your ignition switch, to get a better reading. I just got fed up and I wire the voltmeters directly to the batteries. This won't work for everyone because automotive meters draw current. For direct connection, you should use high impedance meters. Common panel meters are 5000 ohms/volt and so will draw insignificant current.

Before getting carried away, put a digital VOM across the meters to prove that they are working correctly.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
jralbert
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:50:24 PM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
From Rick:"...A properly set up alternator will do a much better and much faster job of charging a dead battery that a 10 amp battery charger...."

-describe, pls, "properly set up alternator". thnx

From Doug: "I put the VOM across the battery but wil also check the voltmeters."

-Mine traditionally read low, only around 12 v, so your description may explain why. I always regarded that as normal, typical readout. So, when both upper and cabin meter on stbd side dropped to 10 v, I suspected a problem. New unit (rebuiilt, that is) now sitting on the boat waiting for yard's attention.

Jeff: I think I traced the wires as you described them in our conversation. But still not sure whether regulator is external
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
fastjeff
#9 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:48:00 PM(UTC)
fastjeff

Rank: Administration

Medals: aluminum star: For Marinette Owners Everywhere above the call of duty

Groups: Admin2, Admin2, Admin, Administration, Member
Joined: 12/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,133
Points: 5,732

Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 30 post(s)
Here's what they looked like (I removed them with the one wire setup).

Jeff
fastjeff attached the following image(s):
fastjeff attached the following image(s): Junk.JPG
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

jimski2
#10 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:13:48 PM(UTC)
Rank: Top Rank Aluminum Star

Groups: Member
Joined: 11/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 147
Points: 71

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Water to be added to the battery should only be distilled water. Adding municipal or well water to your battery will contaminate the acid solution with dissolved limestone, [hardness] and caustic soda used to reduce acidity from flouride additives. These alkalines react with the acid to produce salts and your battery's strength and lifespan are shortened. Cheap battery chargers left on continuously will "cook" out the water in your battery. Ideally using a three stage charger to maintain your batterys is what is needed. They start out strong at some rated at ten amps, then drop to a finish charge of two amps. When the battery is fully charged, they then perodically send a .02 amp charge through to keep the battery topped off. There is a system where the charger will choose which battery bank needs a charge and then alternates back to the weakest bank.
Rick100
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 01, 2009 1:11:38 AM(UTC)
Rick100

Rank: Dedicated Tin Star

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 74
Points: 228

A properly set alternator or should I say charging system should have ----a tight belt that does not slip --be able to put out its rated amp and volt output -- have good wiring connections to the battery -- not poor grounds -- a battery that can take a charge Rick
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
jralbert
#12 Posted : Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:25:24 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
Jeff: Great photo w/captions. I will have to get unlazy and remove the metal plate that covers the electrical components, the one with the big (2")rubber plug in it and check what's underneath. It's a PITA job.
Jim: I agree with your post and use distilled water. Also, I don't leave charger on even though it's supposed to do all you describe (Charles brand charger, about 12 yrs old) except, perhaps, select between the two battery banks.
Rick: Order #1 for the yard is to tighten belts on both sides since there is obvious slippage. Wires all appear tight & clean. Glad you posted that for everyone's benefit.
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
fastjeff
#13 Posted : Wednesday, July 01, 2009 5:31:14 AM(UTC)
fastjeff

Rank: Administration

Medals: aluminum star: For Marinette Owners Everywhere above the call of duty

Groups: Admin2, Admin2, Admin, Administration, Member
Joined: 12/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,133
Points: 5,732

Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 30 post(s)
I tossed that cover out years ago. Too hard to get back on, and it can hide things I want to know about.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

dougrose
#14 Posted : Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:57:46 AM(UTC)
dougrose

Rank: Marinette Royal Aluminum Poster (300+) posts

Groups: Member, Administration, Admin
Joined: 12/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,330
Points: 1,740

Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 20 post(s)
I have seen a number of alternator problems that were caused by poor connection between the alternator and the block. Automotive wiring harnesses often lack a ground wire just for the alternator.

A good cure is to run a heavy (8 awg) wire from the ground stud on the alternator case to the same bolt to which the battery ground strap is attached. The recommended attachment for the battery negative is to one of the bolts that secure the starter motor to the block. That way the battery gets hooked directly to the case of the starter.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
jralbert
#15 Posted : Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25:20 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
Doug..any idea which one is the ground stud? there are two wires attached. One, heavier gauge, appears to be pos output. But there are no markings on the unit (I think) suggesting the other is ground/neg. Also, a wire runs from the alternator to the fuel pump. Does that mean that the factory installed an electric pump?
File Attachment(s):
BoatAlternator2.jpg (283kb) downloaded 6 time(s).
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
fastjeff
#17 Posted : Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:48:32 AM(UTC)
fastjeff

Rank: Administration

Medals: aluminum star: For Marinette Owners Everywhere above the call of duty

Groups: Admin2, Admin2, Admin, Administration, Member
Joined: 12/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,133
Points: 5,732

Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 30 post(s)
You have a mechanical fuel pump--see doctored photo.

Jeff
fastjeff attached the following image(s):
fastjeff attached the following image(s): Junk.JPG
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

jralbert
#18 Posted : Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28:47 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Admin, Administration
Joined: 12/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,117
Points: 665

Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 12 post(s)
Ok..my eye was fooled into thinking that is an electrical connecton when it is indeed, the fuel line sneaking behind the alternator.Crafty thing
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
dougrose
#19 Posted : Friday, July 03, 2009 12:08:21 AM(UTC)
dougrose

Rank: Marinette Royal Aluminum Poster (300+) posts

Groups: Member, Administration, Admin
Joined: 12/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,330
Points: 1,740

Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 20 post(s)
The output for the alternator is usually easy to spot - it is an insulated stud, often with a plastic guard, and the wire attached to it should be heavy and either red or orange. Red is common on automobile engines.

There is usually another connection, small wire, that goes to the (purple) ignition. This powers the regulator. If you have an external regulator (rare these days) then it is a field connection and will go to the regulator.

The negative is internally connected to the alternator case, so the whole shebang is negative. Usually there is a stud mounted to the case directly to permit attaching a wire. When you put an eye terminal on the stud (using an aircraft nut, please), the connection is normally made directly to the case. On some (older) cars, the designers assumed that the connection to the block would be through the brackets. This is a bad idea around water. New harnesses have a black wire that is supposed to go to the case. Better to go directly from the alternator case to the block yourself.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
jhemp3
#20 Posted : Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:49:59 AM(UTC)
jhemp3

Rank: Top Rank Aluminum Star

Groups: Member
Joined: 2/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 238
Points: -147

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
My voltavge meters have always read a "hair" over 12 volts and I too felt it was normal. About every two or three years the starboard meter would fall to 9 or so and I knew I would have to replace the external regulator; I keep a supply of spares. Now, after reading of the virtues of the "one wire" have purchased one. but no wiring diagram was included to help me know how to bypass the old external regulator. I've read several posts about the issue but haven't been able to determine the exact procedure. Great pic Jeff and Joel.
Jim
Jim Hemphill
Detour
'87 32' FBS, USCG Certification #1057921
Berthed MM 207 Tennessee River, Picwick State Park Marina
dougrose
#21 Posted : Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:45:37 AM(UTC)
dougrose

Rank: Marinette Royal Aluminum Poster (300+) posts

Groups: Member, Administration, Admin
Joined: 12/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,330
Points: 1,740

Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 20 post(s)
The external regulator has three terminals: There is a ground, often the case itself, a "hot" wire that goes to the ignition (purple), and a field connection that goes to the alternator field input, usually a 1/4" push-on, or maybe a small stud. The actual alternator output, the large red or orange wire, does not go to the regulator (usually). It goes to the battery, perhaps thru a battery switch.

The new alternator has the regulator inside. The field connection is internal, and the regulator itself is probably powered from the alternator output, which is connected to a battery. There is likely another small terminal, that should be connected to the ignition (purple).

One caveat: If you use a diode-type battery splitter, then the alternator current flows through the diode to the batteries but current cannot come back the other way to power the regulator/field circuit. The alternator doesn't "turn on" since the regulator needs output to run and there is no output.

The solution here is to put a diode from the ignition to the alternator output. This supplies power to the regulator whenever the ignition is turned on. You can see how I did it on my website, http://www.geocities.com...Wiring_32_Marinette.pdf

If you don't have diode-type isolators (they did not come from the factory) then just leave the alternator output alone, and hook up the ignition to the small terminal if needed.

I can perhaps be more specific if you can tell me the make and model of the alternator....


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
Users browsing this topic
guest
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF 1.9.5.5 | YAF © 2003-2011, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.216 seconds.