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Engine Forum transcript - Troubleshooting
marinettejoe
#1 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2007 5:44:02 AM(UTC)
marinettejoe

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Engine Forum transcript - Troubleshooting

I am the frustrated owner of a 1976, 32' Express with FWC motors. I dewinterized both engines with no problems. Both started and ran fine, but the port engine fails to start one day. I hit the red reset button atop the port engine and she started and ran fine. I made it to the gas dock and shut them both down, after which the port engine decided not to start again. Batteries are fine. I replaced the ignition switch and she started the first time and ran. I shut her down and went home. The next day...nothing! A friend with a meter confirmed the ignition switch is good. I replaced solenoid...nothing! Not even a click. When the key is turned the gauges power up. It appears the coil is getting warm when the key is on. Has anyone experienced these symptoms?

Questions one should ask to diagnose the above problem:
1. Does the starter grind at all? If not, your neutral interlock switch (on the trans), or the crappy wiring to it, could be the culprit.
2. Does the starter crank, but the motor does not start? If that happens, you need to pull the coil wires from the cap, ground it to the manifold, and see if there's spark. Sometimes we have to be a Sherlock Holmes at times to find out what's happening.

Answers from the frustrated boat owner:
The starter does not crank at all. There is not so much as a click. I don't know why I've not considered the neutral switch. Good Call. I'll check that tomorrow. That was a major headache in my last boat

More suggestions:
If your starter bendix was screwed up I think you would at least hear something. If you don't hear even a click, it probably is the neutral switch, or the electrical connection to it.

I have a 1982 37' double cabin with twin 360 engines and 19x19 props. Engines run great: new electronic ignition packs, plugs, timed, etc. Start, idle and run as smooth as silk. Problem is that at 2800 rpm, in sync, the port engine uses 1/3% more fuel. Each engine feeds direct from a separate tank (no crossover). What’s your best guess? Choke not opening? Getting into the four-barrel phase too soon? Wrong carb jets? The starboard engine gets about 1 mile per gallon, where the port about .66 miles per gallon (at this same 2,800 rpms) with the bow trimmed down and showing about 16-17 knots. Seems to be on good plane with flat wake and not logy.

Have you checked your distributors to make sure that your advance is working properly (getting full advance)? I would also look into the carburetor to see if the secondaries are opening.

I would first check the advance of the distributor. If it isn't advancing properly it will definitely burn more fuel. You should get full advance, around 20 degrees (plus the initial 5 degrees of timing) at 2,000-2,500 rpm. Also if possible while underway at cruise speed remove the flame arrestor and make sure the choke is open. Note if the engine gains speed with the flame arrestors off--I have seen some engines need more air than the arrestors were giving them. BE CAREFULL of the nut and anything else loose, you don't want it sucked in the engine. If the distributor checks out and the carb is open and looks to be working a compression test of the engine would be in order. If the engine checks out with 140 lbs. compression and cylinders are even, the prop would be the next place to look. It could be damaged. Usually you know this because that engine won't tach out with the other engine or in the case of a damaged blade there would be a vibration.

The original carbs that were on my engines were 700 cfm Carter AFB carbs. I installed the 625 cfm on both engines (Carter AFBs new from Northern Auto) The original primary jets are .101 with metering rods #16-541 that has three steps/.061-.058-.053 sizes. The secondary jets are .086. On the new carbs the primary jets were .098 with metering rods of only two steps, not three, and they have .068-.047 steps. The secondary jets were .101--way too big! If you want to go with the 750 cfm carbs they are really rich, but they will work. My buddy put one on his 318. It works fine but is rich. It pukes excess fuel and carbon on the water when he starts it cold with choke.(Note: Improper choke adjustment!) Seems to run fine at cruise and at WOT. At this time for my 318 engines my primary jets are .101 with metering rods stepped at/.071 and .047 and for the secondary jets .086. Also the springs that I have controlling the secondary opening are RED, which equals 5 inches of vacuum to open. This is pretty standard for 318's but can be changed for any application or engine size. I am currently replacing my 318's with 360s and will be rejetting my carbs in the spring. Would be glad to pass on that info then also. The carbs on your engines most likely are square bores, with all 4 ports equal size. The new ones are different in that they have smaller primaries and larger secondaries. Not a problem. Carter and Chrysler used many different applications over the years. Have you tried to run the boat at cruising speed and have someone block the two vent tubes coming off the primary side of the bad engine side and see if the performance picks up? You have to remove the flame arrestor to do this and be very careful not to hurt yourself. Also make sure that the secondaries are not opening faster on one engine then on the other. You need a vacuum gauge to check this out on both engines. They should be the same. You can fix that by changing the springs under the pistons that control the status of the metering rods during engine vacuum operation by accelerating or decelerating the throttles. Hope some of this helps.

Carb rebuild kits are available at quite a few places here in Michigan. A new carb rebuild kit usually runs around $20-25. When doing your own you need to verify that all the passages to jets, vents, pullovers and accelerator circuits are clear and not clogged. Replace any worn metering rods, non-matched springs for the metering rods or worn jets in the primaries. Also make sure that all gaskets and venturies and installed correctly when reassembling.

On the crossover passage in the intake, some came from the factory open and some closed! On my 318's they were blocked from the factory. You would have to pull your intake manifolds to verify this situation. The cross over is located in the middle of the intake below the plenum chamber of the intake. If you look where your choke rod goes into the intake on the right side of the carb and the cover is held down by a small bolt, your passage in right under that location and travels from cylinder head to cylinder head. This is not too hard of task to pull off. Only thing you need is a set of intake gaskets, you don't even have to pull the distributor.

You can check the crossover sometimes by simply putting your fingers on the raised section under the choke pull off. If it gets warm fairly quickly than you are probably open and OK. If it never warms up it is probably plugged up. Some were blocked off but almost all that had a thermal choke pull off had small plates with a restrictor hole to limit the amount of exhaust gases heating the base of the carb. This was necessary to help eliminate vapor lock that I believe that some early units experienced.

I looked at a 360 engine with the intake off. On the left cylinder head the crossover gasket is completely open and the gasket on the right cylinder head is blocked except for a hole 1/2 inch in diameter. This is to slow the flow down to heat up the intake. When this gets plugged there is no flow and the engine runs rich since the choke doesn’t open all the way. Check the right side for heat; if not you may have a blocked passage.

Our 1975 Express Flybridge 32' Marinette has developed a rather bad port engine oil leak while running. Both engines run well for having 1750 hours on them. I have a question on Chrysler 318's: If it turns out to be a rear seal, .can the rear seal be replaced without hauling the engine out of the bilge? (No!) I realize the trans would have to be removed, but I think I could accomplish that, especially since the Express has a big open cockpit. (The oil pan also has to come off.) I will follow the following regimen to see if I can determine where the leak is coming from:

I will pressure wash the bilge under the errant engine.
I will clean and dry the engine as best as possible
I will clean and dry the bilge under the engine as best as possible
I will lay down some brown butcher paper covering the bilge under the engine and trans.
I will run the engine and see where the drops show up.

I know exactly how you feel. I own an 83 Sedan Bridge with 318s and had the same problem with both engines. Used to run the last few years with oil absorbent diapers under each engine at the rear main seal area. Also with these engines sitting at 13 degree angle doesn't help. Direct drive 1:1. I also had 1720 hours on my engines and they ran fine too. Got tired of it and pulled both engines this year and installed new ones. Your diagnostics of finding the leaks is right on. Also look at the distributor area, sometimes the gaskets leak there and where the engine oil line runs from the rear of the block to the manifold where the engine oil pressure switch is. I also found that engine oil pan gaskets deteriorate over time no matter how much you try to tighten them. It’s not cork, its paper. This is on the large cast aluminum type pan. Another area to check is the valve cover gaskets.

Check is the oil filter adapter on the 318. The adapter bolts to the block with a large bolt and it has a gasket under it. This gasket has given at leaked on at least four boats I know of and we all thought was a faulty rear seal. It’s hard to find but try to start the engine and, while very cold, look at it and also hold a white rag under the oil filter and against the block. On cold start with thick oil it usually shows up the most. Just a thought and it is quite regular on some of the boats over here. Of course the gasket is a marine item and isn't used in automotive that I have been able to find.

Found this same problem on my buddy’s Silverton. He also had an oil leak but his was very obvious. It was in the same place that you described. The large main bolt was loose! If you can't find gaskets for the adaptor they can be purchased, and for that matter all of the engine gaskets can be purchased from Basic Power (www.basicpower.com). I have purchased many Chrysler marine parts from them including complete engine gasket sets. I'm in Michigan and they send through the mail within 3 days.

I also had some leaks that came from the oil sensor located by the distributor. A mechanic told me to use truck oil sensors and it stopped completely. Oil pressure read the same.

Are your engines setting at an angle? Chrysler intake manifolds are like big sewers and most of the fuel will run to the rear cylinders if they are at 13 degree angle. Front cylinders always run leaner. Two seasons ago, I had to replace BOTH engines with rebuilds because of burned-through pistons. The forward-most piston in one engine, the second forward piston in the other. Happened simultaneously at WOT. Neither an experienced yard mechanic or independent surveyor could pinpoint the cause. But both suspected bad gas or water in the gas. A friend suggested that the forward pistons run hot naturally because of the angle at which the engines are mounted, coolant doesn't get up front. There wasn't any forewarning. I don't recall hearing any clicking coming from the engines. Cause is still a mystery. Check whether your insurance company will cover you since this is a sudden, catastrophic failure, not a routine maintenance/wear and tear event. Mine assisted in covering much of the replacement cost.

Engine coolant should not be an issue here unless you have air leaks in your pickup side. The cooling systems work efficiently when everything is right. I have never experienced hot spots in the upper cylinders unless running very lean, not because of water in a raw water cooled system. I did some experimenting on spark plugs a few years ago. My 318's called for RN9Y'S, this is a cold plug (dissipates heat very quickly, and has a short porcelain and electrode sticking out of bottom). I noticed that the four upper (forward) cylinders would run lean and the four rear cylinders ran rich! I left the RN9's in the upper four cylinders and ran RN12's in the lower four cylinders. Now all cylinders were burning equally (by reading the plugs). My engines set at 13 degree angle in a 32 FBSDN with 1 to 1 direct drives. Last year I installed new engines and all new accessories including two new Carter AFB carbs, 625cfm. I totally recalibrated the carbs primary idle and low speed circuits and I am currently running RN12's in all cylinders. I have forty hours on these engines and have made two WOT runs with no problems. I may look at going slightly colder on the plugs after my next WOT run next weekend. The engines should be pretty well broken in by now.

My "good" engine (starboard, that burns 20 % less fuel) has a carb that won't adjust properly at idle--it's got a minor flooding condition. The plugs run dark gray to black. The "bad" engine, the port mill that burns 20 % more gas, has a perfect running carb. Its plugs are running light gray to white. (If it had a bad ignition wire, one of those plugs would run dark, but no.) Both engines start and run fairly equally. (Update: The problem was a dirty flame arrestor.)

How did you determine that your port engine burns more fuel than the starboard one? I have a 1989 32 sedan and I thought that too, based on the amount of fuel required to fill each tank. My setup has a fuel-balancing manifold with petcocks that can regulate the fuel flow from the two tanks. In my boat, both engines and the gen-set draws fuel from this manifold. When mine was using a lot more fuel out of one tank than the other, I closed down partially on the petcock in the line coming from the tank that was running lower at refill. After a couple of tries, I got it pretty close to even. I sync my two engines at cruise with digital tachs to within 20 rpm of each other, so synchronization is not much of a concern. Could this be the cause of your issue? I guess what I'm saying is, that the apparent difference in fuel consumption rates between the two engines may not be accurate if you're basing it on how much it takes to refuel each tank, unless, of course your setup is different than mine. The fuel petcocks are overhead (on the bottom side of the sedan sole) at the aft end of the center engine hatch. One could crawl around in that for years on his hands and knees and not know they were there.

On average a Marinette in optimum running condition, ideal weather, etc. will get about 1.4 mpg according to what I’ve read in forum. So lets take 1.2 mpg X 50 = 60 miles with both tanks a grand total of 156 miles running on fumes. This method could be done for under $500 with no danger to passengers or vessel with spilt fuel from 5 to 10 jerry cans, about what it would take to make it worth while, lashed about the decks, 5 gal. = 6 miles this method about $120 + lashing materials. Then there’s the gas caddy that hold 15 gal. = 18 mi. @ roughly $225 with pump etc. but this is about the same dilemma as jerry cans except little neater?? Wives tale has it that if you run one engine at higher speeds for long distances you have stop the spinning of idle engines prop & shaft as it’s suppose over heat the trans in idle engine due to no cooling effect from pumps now this is hear say someone in forum may be more informed on this subject? Then with prop drag & helm having to be held over to port or starboard would it be worth it running on one engine?? Just a few tidbits for thought. I’m sure you research the distances between Ports where fuel is available this should give you a vague idea on how much extra fuel you may need to carry especially in the foreign countries. I sure would hate to be towed or buy fuel at sea.

That 25% leeway is great advice cause what can happen will happen. I think that’s how the saying goes. That cuts avg. mpg to.09 - 1 x gal.

Chrysler distributors are known for their moisture problem in the distributors. It plays hell on the steel springs for the centrifugal advance weights. You can pull the distributor out and have it repaired at any good auto repair shop. They will probably put it on a machine to reset the centrifugal advance curve after they rebuild it. They will have to replace the springs. [one large & one small, not much difference to the untrained eye] Make sure that you make a note were the rotor is pointing before you pull the distributor out of the engine. If you decide to change the springs yourself, put the dist in a vise remove the plate that holds the points or sending unit to expose the springs and counter weights. You will be surprised at all the rust in there! You will need to use some penetrating oil to free up the counter weighs, everything need to move freely in order for the springs to work properly. After everything is CLEAN, dry and free moving, get yourself some SPRAY anti seize compound made by Loctite [silver in color] and give the springs, counter weights and attachment linkage a good spray down. Do this before you reinstall the plate that holds the points. I did this procedure about four years ago and I have not had a problem with moisture yet.

I've got a question regarding the distributors on my Chrysler 360's. Past year I had a problem with my starboard engine. It would run fine up to 2,000 rpms and then it would have a dead spot when pushing the throttle forward until a certain point where the engine would suddenly rev up to where it should be running. Then I would pull back the throttle down to put it in synch with the port engine. The mechanic that works on my boat checked my distributors and said that they are pretty corroded under the rotor and that the springs aren't in very good shape. As he explained it there are magnets (weights, actually) that spread out as the rpm's pick up to advance the timing. He speculated that this could very well be the problem on the starboard engine. Does this sound right? He recommended that we start here since the springs definitely need attention and reset the timing on both engines. If this doesn't work than he said possibly rebuild carb and accelerator pump.

I remember reading about a trick to keep moisture out of Chrysler
Engines. There is a vent on side of distributor for air, you would have to install some thing to attach a hose to and run the hose to the spark arrestor that would draw air out of distributor. This was supposed to keep the distributor clear of moisture. Some day I may try it

Thanks for the info on this. The mechanic has already removed the old distributors yesterday and is in the process of replacing them with the same type. There was a lot of rust and the springs were definitely not reusable. Even the bottom plate in the distributor was too corroded to reuse. Amazing what the moisture can do. Next time around maybe I'll give it more consideration and change it to electronic ignition (Note: It already is) and do away with the springs. One thing nobody has mentioned thought is whether or not this has any major impact on fuel economy and would it have an effect on the way my starboard engine would seem to have a dead spot when pushing the throttle up from 2000-3000 rpms. Once I get the throttle almost all the way forward the engine would speed up and then I would back it down to match the rpm's of the port engine.

When I re-did mine, I was not to interested in fuel economy (fuel was $1.29 or so a gallon) as the performance of the engines & being able to ideal them down to a 1 to 2 mph.(trolling speeds) But as far as can recall I believe the fuel consumption did get better I couldn’t tell you by how much? The performance increased dramatically and I was able to synchronize engines very easily. The dead spots do sound electrically related more then fuel. I think you hit the nail on the head with the distributor rebuild, well let’s hope there’s not a next time may this solve your dilemma.

One of the first things I did was to get rid of those original small fuel filters on my Marinette. Not sure but I think the original were only filters and small at that. I have a big standard throw away like an oil filter it also removes water. I redid fuel lines to approved hose and last year put in two new carburetors. It was worth it for the old ones are almost worn out. I had them rebuilt by a friend but they need some throttle bushings and other parts that eventually wear out and are not in the rebuild kits.

NAPA sells a nice, in-line filter that you can splice into the line just before the carb. The size to get is 5/16 inch.

I also replaced copper fuel lines with marine-rated rubber hose. I used a spin on fuel filter water separator. You need the mount for the spin on filter. I also put remote oil filters in. These two things sure made Maintenance easier.
Found number for the oil filter OMC 502905.
.
It is possible and easy to pull the trans without pulling engine? Yes. I have done it twice while boat was in water (starboard trans). You disconnect shaft and support rear of engine (hydraulic jack under header). Remove what ever else you need to such as exhaust hose. Take off rear engine mounts and only loosen front mounts, then jack up rear of engine enough to pull off trans.
Keep in mind you have to realign shaft after reinstalling and setting
(to take a set) for 24 hours. I one had my trans out when I had engines out for rebuild trans looked so good all my mechanic did was to install new seals in trans. But next year when we ran boat the starboard trans leaked we had it out twice more while boat was in water, we could never find any thing wrong but second time it did stop leaking.

Changing cap, rotor and plugs in the port engine made the horrible transmission noise in my motor disappear. Haven't been able to duplicate the sound since the tune up. Took the vessel out for a shakedown, and it performed flawlessly. Not a knock or a noise from the transmission! Sounded great, in fact. I am greatly relieved, to say the least! (Note: A rough idle will cause the damper plate--that connects the flywheel to the trans—to rattle loudly.)

I had an intermittent problem with one engine where it would die while cruising. Once I would get it restarted it would only idle. After leaving it off for a half hour I could get some cruising rpms but not much. The next time I would go down to the boat it would run fine. Fuel pressure checked fine--until I rigged it up so I could read the gauge at 3,000 rpm under load. Fuel pressure would drop to zero and then the engine would die. Apparently there was a weak spring in the fuel pump that would start to float at higher rpms. Very annoying!

Regarding your camshaft/timing: The engine would not idle well with a badly installed or wrong camshaft. Lack of distributor advance will prevent an engine of revving up. Your problem is most likely fuel delivery or timing.
You need to determine TDC on #1 cylinder. Take the coil wire off the distributor for safety. First determine which is #1 (the left front in all cases). Take the plug out of that cylinder and rotate the engine until the cylinder is at the top. Use something that cannot be dropped into the cylinder and will not damage the piston by rocking the crank back and forth you should be able to approximate TDC This will let you know where the timing mark should be and you can tell if you have the correct mark. Even if there isn't a correct one you can mark on the engine where you think it should be and this will be somewhat useful. You would be surprised at how far the timing can be off yet the engine will still run. They will have poor torque with late timing but will idle smoothly. One suggestion would be to set the timing at idle by ear and slowly advance it until the engine runs rough.

I too had an "engine won't run over 2,000 rpm" issue. Turned out to be quite simple: I replaced the little fuel filter where the fuel line enters the carb. It has cropped up twice over the years, same engine. I think the coupling at the filter takes a 1" wrench. (A much better fix is to install a large, metal, in-line can filter after the fuel pump.)

I put my engine on top dead center last night and was doing all of the suggestions I have received. The engine is now TDC and the mark on my harmonic balancer is 30 to 40 degrees off. Could this be contributing to all of my engine problems? (No, since it won’t run.)

You either have the wrong # 1 cylinder or the wrong timing mark. The harmonic balancer and crank/piston cannot be installed wrong (like the camshaft can). You might have the wrong timing cover (mixed parts from LH & RH Rotation engines).

There's a slim chance the cam is installed improperly. I would iron out the timing. There are two basic things that you can screw up on installing a cam. One is timing and the other is putting the wrong cam in. They are both major screw ups but it happens. If you have the specs on the camshaft you can check it with a degree wheel and a dial indicator. This is called "degreeing the cam" and is generally done to squeeze the maximum horsepower out of an engine. If this is your problem you would most definitely have to pull the pump off to set the timing. Did you mention in an earlier post that the compression was good? This would indicate the valve timing is acceptable.

Sounds to me like the advance mechanism inside the distributor is not advancing. (From what I read, this is a common Chrysler Marine problem.) The shaft tends to rust in place and/ or the little springs gag over time, which locks the advance in place. Can you put your light on the motor and blip the throttle to see if the mark advances properly (in comparison to a "good" engine).

Definitely sounds like the distributor advance. Did you find the correct timing mark? I suggest you get a dial back to zero timing light. They are not that expensive any more (1 hr labor) and it is the best way to check total advance. With one of these lights you only need to use the TDC mark and you just dial in 5 degrees or whatever your idle timing is. When you get the idle set you can then rev up the engine to about 2500 rpm and check the total advance. I am not sure of the Chrysler spec on the 318's but someone on the list will know. But if you are getting 20-25 degrees total the engine will run ok. The other way to check this is to place a mark on the harmonic balancer that is about 20-30 degrees advance and check to see that you are close.
I think if you want to solve this yourself without hiring an good (expensive) mechanic you will just have to go through each item and make sure it is meeting specifications.

Did the rebuild include new ignition wires? I had a similar problem that was due to old wires that didn't get enough juice to the plugs above 2,000 rpm. Test by spraying a little Windex on them while running at idle in the dark. If you see sparks, the wires are bad

Louder and hotter exhaust can mean late timing. This can be a stretched or jumped timing chain (valve timing) or at the distributor. You can check water flow by putting a bucket under the exhaust and use a stop watch to time how long it takes to fill. Do this for both sides and if you have a large difference then you need to work on the seawater cooling circuit. NOTE: Do not attempt this from the water - lower the bucket from overhead as being in the water or too close to the exhaust outlet can easily cause CO poisoning.

I will check the water flow rate at the exhaust for each engine and then look at the timing and distributor if water flow is not the problem. I hope it is a water pump problem.

Do yourself a HUGE favor and buy one of those digital temperature gages (with the laser beam locator--about $80). This fantastic tool should be in every inboard boat owner's tool kit! All you have to do, to find out what's happening, is start taking temperature readings on each manifold, starting at the front. Do the good engine first, to get a feel of what is correct, then do the 'loud one'. Make up a diagram of the motors and have an assistant jot down the temps as you go. The problem should jump right out at you. I have a feeling one of your water passages in the exhaust manifold is clogged. That would account for the loud noise, and this is dangerous! Sure, you could rip the whole thing apart, to attempt to determine what's going on, but this way is a whole lot easier, right?

When I left the marina and the starboard engine was giving me trouble, so I had to change the fuel filter, alternator belt and spark plugs. That got the engine running great, but the port engine was smoking a little bit. A well meaning guy on the dock wanted to adjust the carburetor. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about, but after he worked on it for a while it became obvious that he was over his head. Finally get it going, get out of the marina on the way to the campsite the port engine cuts out, so I go across the lake with only the starboard engine. Get to campsite, and a friend who is an auto mechanic fixes the stuff that the guy on the dock messed up, by ear. Then the starter on the port engine locks up. It has done this before, and I would hit it a few times with a hammer and it would work, but now it is stuck tight and the hammer trick does not work. We take a boat ride with only the starboard engine running and make it 1/2 way to where we are going before it starts cutting out, so I have to turn around and head back. I think the fuel filter is plugged up again from crap in the tank. The old girl is in the shop again, getting a new starter for the port engine. Also having the mechanic tune both the engines up, change the oil, put in two extra inline fuel filters (the kind that can be taken apart and cleaned) and other misc. things.

Here's a nice tech question for some of you who like to work on engines and know what you are talking about: My brother-in-law just bought a 1991 flybridge sedan. He just got the written report on its Chrysler 318 engines by the mechanic who handled that part of the survey. It says all cylinders had compression readings of 155 except 3 & 4 on the port engine, which were at 145, and 5 & 6 on the starboard engine, which were at 150. He asked me if this sounded about right for a 91 with 350 hours and I said I don't know - I have never had compression checked on my 89. I would guess those readings are about right and the small variance is not anything to worry about. But what do you guys think? (Excellent.)

I have two marine power Marine Power engines that are carbureted with Vortec heads rated 315 hp. Yes she goes like stink! (The MPI engines were rated 325 hp.) The engines come with dual oil filters and dual accessory belts. The biggest problem I have with these engines is that I did not go to a 1.5:1 reduction transmission and 16" props. The 14" props cannot hold back the engines. We had to go through numerous configurations to get a decent performance. Although 14 x 12 with a heavy cup did yield 32 knots at 3700 rpm at WOT. This was acceptable to me but not the engine warranty. Also Fly Bridge sedans get pretty hairy over 30 knots. Just not enough boat left in the water. If I was starting over I would definitely go with 1:5 trans. I would take a hard look at putting a pair of fuel-injected 240hp Vortec V6's into the boat. With correct transmission and props and a couple of hundred pounds lighter boat this should out perform the original. Also should do better on fuel.

The throttle just above idle is quite delicate; just a slight push and the engine revs up by about 500 rpm and I have to tap it gradually down to where she'll run reliably and allow me to shift. If I tap down too much, she will probably stall. When the engine is really warmed up this all happens less, but it still happens. I can't bring the throttle back repeatedly to full idle without encountering a stall. No problem with the starboard engine. It'll start readily, idle and shift nicely, even without being fully warmed. First time this happened was last fall as I was winterizing. Kinda popped up suddenly after years of smooth running. It idled so poorly, the trans was rattling loudly and angrily. So this spring, I changed plugs, the in-line fuel filters, and distributor caps and had a mechanic...
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DiverDennis
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:50:47 AM(UTC)
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1975 28' Express, Single M360
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mharayd
#3 Posted : Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:28:04 PM(UTC)
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Any thoughts ? 330 hp. crusader to 210 hp. cummins 6 BTA ? P.S. I did find out I can keep my 1:1 velvet drive the same eng. & trans. combo has been installed in 26' Shamrocks since 1986 to present. I also tried a 16x16 LH wheel turns with 1" clearance to bottom of hull and no cavitation issues thanks guys for any input !!!
fastjeff
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:10:22 PM(UTC)
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Others have up-powered their Marinettes while retaining the 1:1 driveline and had propping problems. The blade tips, on props large enough to hold the power, move too fast and cause cavitaion--they "blow away" as boat racers call it. One of our members had to get Australian ($$$) 4 bladed props to make his conversion work. Why 4 bladers? More blade area pushing water back without more diameter (and high tip speed).

Now, if you're not interested in high speeds and cruise at "sensible" speeds, then you can get away with it--others have. Just be prepared for some prop shopping nightmares before you find one that will:

1. Fit the shaft and,


2. Have the diameter and pitch you need.


Not trying to be negative here, but that is a problem in the 1:1 ratio approach.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

bpboater
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:04:43 AM(UTC)
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If you are considering a switch from a gas V-8 to a Cummins diesel in line 6 cylinder, the length of the engine and transmission might be a big issue. Or, is the Cummins a v-6?

Paul
Roger2
#6 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:21:35 AM(UTC)
Roger2

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What is top RPM of the Cummins? The Chrysler is 4000, with my Volvos top end is 2800. I have 1.54 to 1 Twin Disc gear box & turning 4 blade Dyna quad 20 X 23 props. Props are turning 1800 at.WOT. Diesel has a lot more torque, but at lower RPM. Not to mention the added weight! My 2 cents.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
mharayd
#7 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:49:37 AM(UTC)
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The engine will be a inline 6 cyl. and as to the prop issue I am presently turning a 14x14 LH @ 4400 RPM She cruises nicely @ 3000 RPM and 18.5 Knts. but I like 26-2800 RPM and 16+ knts. I also in my last 2 years of reaserch tried putting the 16x16 LH that is used on the shamrock 26' w/ the same cummins 6cyl. and velvet drive 1:1 on my gas 427 crusader it didn't like that very well ! But in doing so i did find out a couple good things like @ 2000 RPM she cruised @ 24 knts. with no cavitation issues and I still had 1" of clearence between hull and prop, Cummins told me that I would be running my best effcientcy @ 1950 RPM, and be burning only 5.6 gal/hr. presently I burn 12.6 gal. per/hr. in my gas eng.
mharayd
#8 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:57:00 AM(UTC)
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Roger 2600 rpm will be W.O.T . also I just looked at specs. on torque curve @ 1850 RPM she has 534 ft. lbs. of torque my 427 chevy crusader 330 hp. is probably 300-350 ft.lbs. at WOT
fastjeff
#9 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 3:29:51 AM(UTC)
fastjeff

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..."Cummins told me that I would be running my best effcientcy @ 1950 RPM,"

Good luck trying to find a prop for a 1:1 ratio drivetrain that will work with that rpm/ torque. You'd need a 16 by 25 pitch or so--and it might blow away from cavitation. Then there's that slender, 1 inch prop shaft--it won't take kidly to so much torque.

One of our lads has (had?) a 32 Express with 1:1 drives that some moron repowered with 454 big blocks. (The front of the engines protruded into the cabin! Honest. I have photos.) Last I heard it was having "prop troubles" and wasn't doing all that well.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

mharayd
#10 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 4:22:33 AM(UTC)
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Jeff I measured 34+" of height and 44"+ of lenght from bell housing foward. As to the shaft I'm trying to find my reciept for having my prop turned back in March when I launched, because I think it's a 1 1/8" shaft, Also I was wondering do you think that the 26' shamrock I have referenced weighs more yhan my 28' hardtop? keep in mind it's a '68 I have the old style hull with thinner bottom 3/16" not 1/4" thick
Doug Doty
#11 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:33:35 PM(UTC)
Doug Doty

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I am not able to contribute much to this thread but am looking to maybe make a toy/hot rod cruiser from a local 26'er I have me eye on and am very interested in where this leads and what potential speeds could be had from the little big M
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mharayd
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:41:12 PM(UTC)
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Doug I'm a little lost with that "little big m" Marty
Doug Doty
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:07:23 PM(UTC)
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I was speaking of the 26' single I am looking at as being the smallest version Marinette offered in it's fleet. I looked back and re-read my post and i saw a few typo's. Better go see if I can edit it a litte.
466 Bertram FDMY, " Easy Rider "
1984 39 Marinette sedan, " LIBERTY ONE "
440'S 19x22 wheels, 710 HOURS

dougrose
#14 Posted : Friday, November 27, 2009 12:16:07 AM(UTC)
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There are a number of difficulties in converting a Marinette to diesel.

Engine torque determines prop area, more or less, and the slower speed and higher torque of a diesel demands a larger prop. You can go up an inch or so in diameter, but no more.

Marinettes are designed to take V-8 engines, which have a low block. Most diesels are in-line, and are therefore too tall.

Diesels make a lot of noise.

Diesels are heavy.

That said, I am very fond of my Perkins diesels, even though they add around 800' to the boat. I used 1" foam with a barrier from Hamilton Marine to shut them up. The cabin sole has been raised a couple of inches to accommodate the height, and that is a nuisance, but I can live with it. I am currently using the original 16" props banged out to 19 pitch, and I will go up an inch in size some day.They just run and run, and use little fuel. With 240 hp (total) I can cruise at a little over 20 knots, and that is enough for me.

There was a long discussion of diesel conversions on this forum a while ago, to which you should refer. My website is down (geocities is gone) and I am working on a new one, but it is not ready yet. I will have a large section on diesel conversion.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
mharayd
#15 Posted : Saturday, December 05, 2009 9:22:15 AM(UTC)
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Doug the nearest I can figure I might be adding 140 lbs. but I am only carrying 50 gal. fuel not 100 like the rest of tou guys. 50 X 7.3 lbs./gal. = 365 lbs. that Im not carrying. I also disposed of the fridge,stove,and cabinets behind helm I also just got a call back from cummins 12-03-2009 we got engine height down to 32" from 34 1/2" with a shallow sump oil pan still "16 quarts". Depth of my engine room is 34 3/4". P.S. what is the "barrier" you are referring to that you used over your 1" foam ? Thanks Marty
Barkleydave
#16 Posted : Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:59:32 AM(UTC)
Barkleydave

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IMHO It is difficult and very expensive to convert to diesel. The problem as earlier described Dougrose is size and weight. He has been there and done that and if you read about his boat it was a MAJOR effort.

One must balance performance, economy and expense.

1. One can drop in a a gas crate engine new with new transmissions for far less than a diesel.
a) Increase performance and reliability with new engines with fuel injection etc.
b) The cost savings when comparted to diesel will buy your fuel for many years even at 5+ bucks a gallon.

2. Diesels will last a long time only if they are run on a regular basis. Diesel engines do not like sitting around and run 50 less hrs per year! Maint. is higher and conversions are expensive.
a) If going with diesel plan on going with small engines and greatly reduced speed. (turning your M into trawler performance) This works well if you enjoy cruising at 10-12 Knots all the time.
b) With the correct downsized engine you will experience greater range before refueling. This is important for curisers who often have to travel 100 plus miles to the next fuel stop. (Cumberland River, Ten Tom etc)

You must love your Big M. The conversion cost of a single can exceed 30K. Most M's in that size range bring no more than 15-25K. Such a conversion would be a great find for the next buyer but adds little to the value of the vessel. Sad but true.

I looked at coverting to twin Yanmar engines on my 29. They would fit but speed would be max of 15K and the estimated cost was over 50K! (That is having professionals do the work)

I have decided when I repower my M it will be new crate engines and gas. I love the boat and realize that it is a personal investment for my satisfaction not financial gain.

safe holidays,

dave

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jc000
#17 Posted : Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:50:35 AM(UTC)
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I did not know that they changed from 3/16 to 1/4 on the hull. When did this happen.

John
Roger2
#18 Posted : Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:59:44 AM(UTC)
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Per BigM owners manual, 5/32 bottom on 28 to 32 & 3/16 on 37' all 1/8 sides from chines up.


Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
dougrose
#19 Posted : Monday, December 07, 2009 1:48:29 AM(UTC)
dougrose

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Most sound insulation is just a piece of foam, with sticky on one side and perhaps aluminum foil on the other. This is OK for gas. Better sound deadener uses a heavy layer in the center (used to be lead but is now some sort of vinyl) with a "decoupling" layer of flexible foam behind it. You need this for diesel. I got mine from Hamilton Marine. You will need to cover the underside of the sole above the engine, and the firewall forward of it, and maybe more. Look to spend $1000 or more.

Horsepower ratings are deceptive. Diesels are rated in real horsepower, and most gasoline engines use the fantasy system as developed in sales departments. If you are going to compare, compare torque at the needed rpm. That's all the prop cares about.

I have experience with two diesel Marinette conversions now (28' and 32'), and both can plane off and go pretty nicely, but they are NOT SPEEDBOATS. Expect to get the same performance top end as others do at cruise.

All is not economics. Many years ago I lost the one dearest to me to a gasoline fire, and I don't trust the stuff. I now drive a diesel pickup (Cummins, as it happens), a diesel car (made in Stutgart, Americans don't know how), and a diesel Marinette. These vehicles are powerful and reliable with few bad habits. The combination of an aluminum hull and diesel engine makes, in my opinion, the best boat.

I have two gasoline engines: the one in my Mustang, and the 90 hp Johnson on my little Boston Whaler fishing boat. These are applications where gasoline makes more sense. But I am very wary whenever I fill the tanks with that liquid explosive.

By the way, rebuilt Perkins for my boat would run about 8K each. I can have them put in place for a few hundred each, and everything else (wiring, hoses, hookups, and so on) can be (and is) done by me. Worth it? I think so.





1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
Barkleydave
#20 Posted : Monday, December 07, 2009 3:10:49 AM(UTC)
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I would love to be able to go with small diesels in my 29. Lots of talk but thee seems to be no one in my area with the knowledge or ability to do it correctly.

I no longer have the ability nor the motivation to do the coversion myself. Most of us do not have the resources to do the work. My local marina talks like they could do it but when asked how many they have converted... well you know the answer..ZERO.

I do not wish to be some marinas test case.

Would be great to see some examples of completed coversions with detailed photos and equipment needed along with solid cost estimates.


dave
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