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Hull Corrosion Issues
pastelblack
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:52:48 PM(UTC)
pastelblack

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Hi Fellow Marinetters - Hoping someone might have a few ideas on this.....in August 2007 we launched in a clean fresh water lake here in Virginia after ground up restoration. We pulled the boat 3 months later in november and I noticed numerous white specs everywhere on the hull, especially at the rear 1/3 of the boat. They appeared to be small 1/4 inch white bubbles of powder that when you rubbed them off you could see slight pitting underneath. It was in the largest concentration around the struts but even on the bottom of the hull, coming through the old coal tar paint and the bottom paint. The stainless shaft, bronze prop and ss rudder were fine. I was using aluminum anodes and was only getting readings around 0.55 to 0.65.
Based on everyones recomendtaion, including advice from personnel at Pluckebaum houseboats (where I bought my anodes) and also from a marine surveyor, I switched to MG anodes.....3' on either side of the keel, 1' on each trim tab and then two 1' guppies near the stern on either side of the boat. This raised readings to 0.75 to 0.95 depending on where I put my home made capac. I thought I was golden.
We pulled the boat last week and to my dismay (aka horror) there seemed to be even more corrosion than last year!!! There are white sppecs of corrosion everywhere....again. The MG anodes were showing signs of corrosion indicating they are working to a degree.....but I cannot figure out what is going on.
Several notes...
Last year I remember trying to determine with my volt meter if the shaft was isolated and I decided it was. We also run an isolation transformer.....and I always unhook from shorepower when we leave the boat.
This may be of some concern......the engine sits directly on the stringers....no isolation between the metal motor mounts and the stringers. Is that a potential problem?

I am very sorry to be long winded here but I would rather be detailed than not, and I am really getting concerned now and do not want to launch in the spring until I have this resolved. I would gladly hire someone to help me but cannot find any real metal boat experts around here.......this is so frustrating.

I will try and attach some photos taken last year to give an idea of what it looks like....keep in mind it is worse this year. I did not get any photos last week but will try and get some next week when I go back up. The photos are of the keel, struts and also a few of the stern where there was bare aluminum exposed to the water.

HELP!!!
Many thanks to you all...

Bob
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fastjeff
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:08:41 PM(UTC)
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I understand your concern (and horror) at what's happening. Right off, it seems to me that the hull was not prepared correctly for coating. You have bare metal spots everywhere that are reacting (over-reacting) to corrosion, for bare spots focus the corrosive effect.

Explain to me in detail, please, the bottom painting technique that was used.

Jeff

PS: Considering the amount of magnesium anode you used--and it's a HUGE amount--I'm surprised that your readings were that low.
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Docsnow
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:08:39 PM(UTC)
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Bob,

Truly sorry to hear of your problem. After reading your thread the part about unplugging the A/C shore power it has me wondering if U have a DC ground leak which is as serious if not worst than a 120 AC other than for your crews & your safety from shock. After reading what a galvanic
isolator main duty is to 1st alert U than the ground from shore power is properly hooked up 2nd to protect from stray currents from other boats etc in the waters near the boat. In my opinion I’d start chasing DC ground leaks 1st off with what U have installed than what the P/Os have done D/C wise which can be a real PITA. Cause being in a fresh water lake that problem shouldn’t occur. BTW is there a strong iron or copper content in the water for I ran into that predicament this Spring when I move the boat to another marina drove me nuttier than I am for a spell my normal Capac reading where always at 1.1 area just with the recommended amount of anodes. What compounded my dilemma was that I took the F/B off for transport thinking I hook something up wrong I started a wild goose chase of the bridge wiring to no avail. Thru pure luck
I stumbled on a former Big M owner at the local watering hole started describing my mayhem he said stop the tail chase add more anodes there is a heavy concentration of iron in the harbor water so my dilemma led me to believe U have enough anodes on your vessel so again it points to a DC ground fault. Joe Pasco has a great article on his web site on DC /AC ground fault & the does & don’ts. Plus Jeff may have transferred it from the old Big M site? Great job Jeff. HTH Bob it’s a
PITA job chasing down a ground fault but a sure necessity to find it for the vessel & piece of mind Brick wall

Norm,

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PS: over anode protection is as bad as not enough stay below 1.2
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dougrose
#4 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 12:58:26 AM(UTC)
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What do you mean by "homemade" Capac meter? The most important part of the Capac system is the electrode plate fastened to the hull. This is a silver compound that forms a battery with the water, giving about a volt between electrode and water. If a volt is measured between electrode and hull, then there should be no voltage between hull and water.

The electrode must be right or the readings make no sense. The meter itself is just a regular voltmeter with a pushbutton: current only flows (using up the silver stuff) when you push the button.

An electronic meter with high input impedance will not draw current and so the button is not needed. Modern Capac systems read all the time.

You can replace the factory meter with a digital one with 100Mohm or more impedance if you wish. I will spec one if you are interested.

The location of the corrosion makes me suspicious that shaft or rudder isolation may be a problem.

To check the shaft/rudder isolation from the hull when out of the water, you can use an ohmmeter between shaft and hull. Anything less than a megohm is suspicious. If there is a short, look carefully at the cutless bearing, the stuffing box, and the isolator at the transmission output flange.

The same check is done in the water by simply shorting the shaft to the hull. You should see a change on the Capac meter. If you do not, then the shaft is likely already shorted to the hull.

If you have an isolation transformer, rather than the little ground box, then there is no need to disconnect shore power for corrosion control. You can verify that it is wired correctly and working by measuring with an ohmmeter from the green ground on your dock plug to the hull. I have seen two where the dock ground was wired through to the boat's hull ground!

It is normal for the engine to be in contact with the hull. You should have a heavy yellow wire from the battery negative to a stud on the starter motor, and a smaller green wire from the stud to the hull. The engine circuits return to the engine block, and all others should return to the stud on the starter.

Marinette makes this work by isolating the transmission output flange from the shaft. Thus, the shaft, prop, and shaft zinc form their own private battery, leaving the hull alone.

Sorry to be so long-winded: Liz says I should have been a Russian novelist. This is a big topic and I don't know that much about it but I am sure that other members will weigh in.....


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
fastjeff
#5 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 3:09:18 AM(UTC)
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Doug:

Lots of people (like me) use a hand held probe that we dip into the water, then ground the other lead on a railing post.

Jeff
fastjeff attached the following image(s):
fastjeff attached the following image(s): capacmeter.jpg
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pfhlaw
#6 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 3:53:26 AM(UTC)
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Bob:
First check the continuity between the shafts and the hull. If they are isolated check the cutlass bearings. They may be brass instead of non-metalic phenolic resin shells. If brass, they MUST be replaced with the rarer and more expensive phenolic bearings or your hull will continue to act as the sacrificial anode to the more nobel brass and/or the stainless shafts.
Peter
1981 32' sedan bridge
twin Chrysler 360 cu. in. 250 hp engines
Raw water cooled
Nimbus II
Home port: New Buffalo, MI
jralbert
#7 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 4:10:20 AM(UTC)
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Bob: I'm in sync with the others. You have so much corrosion occurring so fast, my vote is:
1- check those cutlass bearings as Peter suggested. From your description (main corrosion near struts - or back 1.3 of hull), that is a prime suspect.
2- check for a 12 volt short inside the boat. Chafed wire? Bad ground? There are experts on this board who can coach you into going thru this very, very important checkout. It may be easier if two people team up to carry out the checking.
Twelve volt DC - even tiny amounts - problems are much more dangerous to the hull than 120 v AC. Why? Because the electrons flow in one direction, carrying away the metal from less to more noble (research that) on the galvanic scale. In AC current, the electrons are marching back and forth so the flow of metal is less.
3- shaft isolation as described above.

Finally..those photos will be welcome.
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
pastelblack
#8 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 7:57:36 AM(UTC)
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These are extremely helpful replies....even though a few of you have lost me in that I am not completely sure of what I am looking at, or for with respect to things like phenolic vs bronze cutlass, etc. Anyway, I want to respond to you all with some answers to your questions and some follow up questions of my own. The first thing I want to do is post some photos....I thought I had but apparently I had not. Can anyone let me know what I need to do to post a photo?
Also, I wanted to clear up the point about the home made capac. I may have led a few astray on that....it is like Jeff's......basically the Silver Chloride probe (from West Marine) connected to a multi meter....hung over the side!
THANKS again, and if anyone knows how to post photos...please let me know.
Many thanks, always
Bob
pfhlaw
#10 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 8:39:52 AM(UTC)
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Bob:
The cutlass (strut) bearing is visible between the shaft and the strut. It should be brown in color. If you scrape away the antifouling paint and can see a ring of brass surrounding your stainless prop shaft in the strut, you have the wrong bearings and they have to come out.

Joel is correct about the DC current being much worse than the AC. When you electroplate a piece of metal you immerse it in an electrolytic solution and introduce a DC current flow that induces the metal ions to flow from the anode to the cathode. AC current jumps back and forth and makes a poor system for electroplating, which is realy controlled corrosion.

Some of our members have tracked down stray DC current by turning off one 12v DC breaker at a time until the meter reads correctly.
Peter
1981 32' sedan bridge
twin Chrysler 360 cu. in. 250 hp engines
Raw water cooled
Nimbus II
Home port: New Buffalo, MI
jralbert
#9 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 10:33:29 AM(UTC)
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pastelblack wrote:
These are extremely helpful replies....even though a few of you have lost me in that I am not completely sure of what I am looking at, or for with respect to things like phenolic vs bronze cutlass. Bob
Bob: The method for posting photos is listed on the board so I won't take space or time to re-post.

On the tech stuff, I know the pain of discovery because I go through this all the time with mechanical and electrical stuff. SCared to death to fix something until I am forced to - then the second time is much easier.

Our fellow forum denizens are exceptionally well-informed but sometimes we all leave out a few details (or put in too many) when we try to lend a hand in these posts. Much easier to tell than to write. But be persistent til you get the answers you need. No one is judged harshly for asking questions.
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
pastelblack
#11 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 5:29:34 PM(UTC)
pastelblack

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I am sorry about the photos (or lack thereof) all.....I keep getting this when I try to upload.........Request timed out.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.


Anyway, if anyone wants some photos just email me at furryhill@msn.com and can send some.

Jeff - I did not paint this boat. I was told by the previous owner that it had been painted at some point, God only knows when, in the past. I think he mentioned it was coal tar epoxy but not certain. My intentions are to soda blast the hull and go bare aluminum in the spring and decide from that point if I will attempt to repaint at some point.

Peter - thanks for the recommendation on the breakers...we did do that at the end of last season. I honestly think we eliminated wiring and grounds inside the boat. The only thing that was bugging me was the fact the metal engine mounts are in direct contact with the stringers. I thought that could have been a problem but I think one of the previous posts seemed to think that was not an issue.

We also have a PSS Packless Sealing system but cant imagine that is an issue.
It seems to make sense that it is either the rudder or strut bearings. I will have to get up to the boat and check this out.

One other thing I just noticed on the Marinette web site is that they don't have 1 1/8" strut bearings listed........and my shaft is 1 1/8" .........oh boy.

I will get back as I try and figure out just what I have .....
Thank you all.
Bob

Docsnow
#12 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 8:49:06 PM(UTC)
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Bob,

Wrote:

This may be of some concern......the engine sits directly on the stringers....no isolation between the
metal motor mounts and the stringers. Is that a potential prob

Bob, do your eng mounts look something like this? They used wood isolators between eng mount & stringer even on thru hull intakes? U may be able to zoom in on the mount area of pic area to get a better view this is the best view of the eng mounts that I could find. From what I can recall there’s a1/4" piece of wood spacer between the mount & stringer than the mount the hole down bolt is isolated by the plastic ring in mount itself HTH

Norm,

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 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
fastjeff
#13 Posted : Friday, December 05, 2008 9:35:15 PM(UTC)
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That wood is a sound/ vibration isolator, not an electrical isolator. The blocks are grounded directly to the hull elsewhere.


Glad to hear that you intend to soda blast and repaint. (Easy for me to say!) That's the only cure for what is, I fear, a botched bottom painting job.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Docsnow
#14 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:59:37 AM(UTC)
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Jeff,

One question on the isolation? Than why is the hold down bolt being isolated in the plastic rings from the metal part of the mount itself ? Think

Norm,

BigBigMs Live On Applause
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

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 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
fastjeff
#15 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 1:26:58 AM(UTC)
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Not for electrical isolation reasons. Hell, the entire motor is grounded to the hull only a few inches away!

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

dougrose
#16 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 3:01:48 AM(UTC)
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Looks good, Jeff. Do you know the source for the probe? This setup would be great as a backup for the factory-installed unit.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
sauconyjim
#18 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:50:11 AM(UTC)
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You mentioned you are going to soda blast and go bare in the spring. My question I guess is what would be the downside of going bare? I have my own soda blasting equipment so this part is the easy part. Does this open me up to faster corrosion or any other issues I am not thinking about,
jralbert
#19 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:40:49 AM(UTC)
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-Wood blocks under engine mounts: I don't think they are there for sound isolation. As a solid substance, they still carry vibration. Instead, I think they are there to isolate contact between the steel motor and the aluminum stringer - to prevent any galvanic mischief.

-Bare boat bottom: Bare bottoms are great in Playboy. But not in Marinettes. Do yourself a favor if you go through the trouble and expense of blasting and immediately (as in right now, immediately) spray on a protective barrier coat after blasting (and brushing off) the hull. Also posted on the board are the steps involved and the time intervals. I will try to do a search and re-post for you, Bob. Perhaps, in your Lake Anna fresh water environment you could finish up with only two coats of Trilux (or other) bottom paint instead of three to save a little time and money.

For me, the main advantage of properly coating the bottom is warding off plant and barnacle growth that left to grow will cost you fuel. Secondary is protection against galvanic corrosion. For your biggest protection there, look at the posts above.
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
Docsnow
#20 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:27:14 AM(UTC)
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Jim,

Does this open me up to faster corrosion or any other issues I am not thinking about

No as a matter of fact U’ll have less chance of electrolysis corrosion the way it’s been explained by a few members & what I’ve read the big the exposed area the less it effects the aluminum. I’ve ask the question of why all the AL, pontoon & house boats didn’t use a epoxy barrier etc on their bottom. I asked John A., several yrs ago about it he stated that on till the Marinettes started to head out into salt water they where bare bottomed with just a booth strap on themfor cosmetic purposes. He explained to me this way . Take a lady in a pair of flat shoe that weighs 100 lb shebarely put more than that amount pressure on that surface put the same lady in a pair of stiletto high heels & the pressure would increase 10 fold , in other words the smaller the hole the great the velocity of electrolysis. The other thing about not using a A/F paint the algae will grow much faster. But if an when I go bare bottom I’ll use the product called Skat that the go fast boats use it doesn’t work well if U are a Martoony boater but if U use your boat often & at high speeds it works fairly well the faster the boat goes the better it works I use it on my R-I-B which goes a bit fast than my Big M & it pretty well at the end of the season what’s on there power washes off very well. I planned to go the bare bottom route the season but with the economic pinch I’ll wait & see what happens. AnyWho that’s ½ pennies worth.Anxious

 Norm,

BigBigMs Live On Applause


This is a pic of a AL. house boat that was in it’s 5th season with any bottom paint the Capt. of that vessel stated AL boat just a little smaller never had bottom paint on it either in the 12yrs he had owned


http://s25.photobucket.c...&current=AL_BOAT.jpg
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
pastelblack
#21 Posted : Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:36:43 AM(UTC)
pastelblack

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On the bare bottom issue......the same reasoning was explained to me by Dennis Pluckebaum of Pluckebaum Houseboats. He said they often did not paint there hulls and did not have any other type of protection. The aluminum in mass theory I guess. Also, the guys at my marina use Shark Hide on the bare toons and they seem to hold up very well against growth of any kind. We like to beach our boat and I am afraid I will paint the thing and then manage to get a few scrapes and nicks here and there and then it starts all over again. This is an interesting topic though.
BTW....What type of house boat is that?? Very cool.
Bob
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