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Missing ground connection
jralbert
#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:30:57 AM(UTC)
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Starboard engine/battery bank:
Discovered ystdy that the battery negative terminal connection was not made to the common ground post on the hull . That is, the cable was not secured to the battery, just dangling. Apparently, it got left off when I replaced the batteries last year. But there IS a connection from the engine block (or is it the starter?) that is secure. All systems on that battery bank seem to have functioned quite well without that connection.

Question is what damage could that have caused... and why is the connection necessary if there was no harm. Is it just a matter of a direct, short connection to ground or is there a potential for harm (the first part of the question)?

thnx

Off topic & FYI: We have this marvelous late winter weather break with temps around 60.. I am headed back to the boat right now to finish bottom painting, something not normally completed til mid-April!!
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
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ComputerJoe
#2 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:29:24 AM(UTC)
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We had 57 yesterday...lost many FEET of snow. Starting to feel like summertime!

Not an expert on this but I think these wires to hull ground may be bonding wires and not meant to carry current but only to keep everything metal at the same potential voltage. I was told to run a green wire between every thru hull fitting below the water line and gound them to the hull by a marine surveyor. An ex DNR inspector told me I don't need to as the boat is metal and provides the bonding thru the hull. I'm running the wires.
Roger2
#3 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:35:05 AM(UTC)
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Joe, I hope you don't have brass thru hull fittings. They should be plastic or marelon, then no wire needed.

Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
ComputerJoe
#4 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:01:41 AM(UTC)
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Raw water intake is brass, two exhaust thru hulls are chromed brass, everything is 40+ years old and in fine shape. Also the new, lockable, fuel fills have plastic flanges with a metal fill pipe and all should be bonded along with the engine, I think.
Roger2
#5 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:17:28 AM(UTC)
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Guess I'm lucky, all my thru hulls were changed to marelon in 05 when boat was painted by previous owner. The only ones not changed were the tank vents, and I'm going to change the waste tank vent, which corroded shut this fall.
I'm to large & too stiff in the wrong places to get to it so I've got to find a tall thin young blonde female who knows plumbing to get in there and do the job for me.

Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
dougrose
#6 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:00:06 PM(UTC)
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My preferred method for starting battery ground is to run a heavy wire from the battery negative terminal directly to a stud on the starter. Another lighter wire can go from the stud on the starter to the hull itself. All engine functions and anything else powered by the battery should return to the stud on the starter, not directly to the hull.

The first wire must be sized for full starting current, the wire from block to the hull should carry no current at all, but probably it is a good idea to use at least AWG 10.

This is not the way the factory did it. They wired all grounds to a stud on the hull. This has the disadvantage that it is difficult to isolate shorts to the hull if you can't get the grounds isolated from the hull. It also puts another connection in the starter circuit, often a source of trouble. But it is convenient to do, and of course works OK.

Fuel fills and tanks must be grounded to the hull, not to the engine block, per USCG. Check with Jeff, who knows the CG regs.

If you have brass or bronze fittings below the waterline, they should be isolated from the hull and NOT bonded to the hull. Aluminum, brass, and water make a little battery, and if you connect the aluminum and the brass with a wire, current will flow and the aluminum will be consumed. I would go with the DNR guy and not the surveyor on this one. Don't just take my word for it, either....it is too important.

My bronze underwater fittings were isolated by the factory using micarta and are still in good shape. They do NOT have any wires on them, or any place to put one. I think the factory got it right. I wonder if others have the same setup.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
jralbert
#7 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:12:06 PM(UTC)
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To clarify...there is existing connection from the battery neg to a connection on (I think) the transmission casing. The other neg connection, that normally would be fastened to the hull at a point fwd of the engines is the one that is dangling near the batt.

(My thru hulls are isolated)
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
fastjeff
#8 Posted : Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:35:16 PM(UTC)
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Connect the motor to the hull and all will be well.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

jralbert
#9 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 4:36:40 AM(UTC)
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I'm concluding that Marinette made two connections, just to be on t he safe side. One from neg battery to a bolt in the area of the transmission and the other to a post fwd of the engine. And therefore, just because one of my terminals is loose (that is what my wife has been saying for years) is no cause for concern. But I will reattach it at next visit to put things back where they were designed to be. Thnx all
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
RiverRatt
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:33:28 AM(UTC)
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I concur with Doug's post: The negative battery cable should be connected to the starter bolt, and all other grounds connect form there.

I have a welded aluminum Monark with a Merc IO. I went to start it one day and smoke came from everywhere. The engine negative cable had a bad connection on the block. The marine radio and a 12V power plug were wired directly to the battery. When I tried to start the 12ga wire was trying to ground thru the 12V power (curette plug) connected to the hull and power the starter. The 12ga wire turned into an 18' heating element and burned up. The positive side had a fuse the negative side did not. Luckily it is a work boat with no interior the only damage was the small ground wire.

What IF: On Marinette connection you could have a loose connection at the block. At; the stud you have good connection to a small wire connected to the hull. You could have the same problem.

I am going to run the negative directly to the starter. Then run the cable to the stud on the hull. So that I don’t have to re-engineer the wiring.
"The is no dumb-ass vaccine" - Jimmy Buffet
old32
#12 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:58:02 AM(UTC)
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i have made a copper ground block for mine all grounds will go to it .motor ground will go to starter bolts.then it will be bonded to the hull with a bolt at only one location.with this setup you should be able to disconnect the electronics-cabin grounds and all equptment should have no power proving its negative to be isolated from the hull.(for corrosion reasons)


tim
72 32' express
"http://www.theboaters.com/boats/Powerboat_Express_Cruiser_marinette_1972_anticipation"
dougrose
#13 Posted : Friday, February 13, 2009 2:41:09 AM(UTC)
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What happened to RiverRatt could happen to anyone, and Marinettes are a chief offender. A number of the loads on my boat were grounded to the hull, rather than having a return wire to the stud on the block. The trim tab pump, several lamps, and the windshield wiper motors all had this problem. The only way to troubleshoot it is to remove the connection from the block to the hull, and verify that everything works.

I have split the difference: since I have 4 batteries, I use a copper ground plate to bring all six heavy ground wires together. But the ground plate is insulated from the hull so I can detach it for testing. In fact, I use a shunt between ground plate and hull, so that I can measure current flowing there without detaching anything. Very handy for troubleshooting ground problems.




1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
fastjeff
#14 Posted : Friday, February 13, 2009 5:11:27 AM(UTC)
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Railroad locomotives are all wired with a separate ground return path for every device on board. They have learned through bad experience that this means less destruction when a short occurs.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

ComputerJoe
#11 Posted : Friday, February 13, 2009 9:02:32 AM(UTC)
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RiverRatt wrote:
The positive side had a fuse the negative side did not.


I wonder if it meets regs to have your bonding system fused. It seems safer than risk smoking it in the engine compartment.
dougrose
#15 Posted : Saturday, February 14, 2009 5:02:59 AM(UTC)
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As Jeff notes, if you have a floating return system ( all the grounds go back to the battery via the engine block, not through the hull ) then if you have a short to hull anywhere, the short current goes through the (small) bonding wire between block and hull. So that short bonding wire is the only one that burns up, and there is no damage elsewhere.

At one time, the Navy used this setup, with a resistor between "return" and "hull". A short to hull caused no damage, but set off an alarm.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
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