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New carbs - same problem.
jcs707
#1 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:35:55 AM(UTC)
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Continuation of my original posting : New boat - first problem: (brief history of original problems, engines start and run well - great at high RPMs ... but after about 30 minutes of running - port will begin to stall when you're at idle - specially when you're just using the clutches. It then would just flood out. I ordered new Edlebrock 1409s. 1979 32 Sedan - original AFBs rebuilt ~2 years ago).

Today ----------

Well, brand new 1409s didn't fix it. Put the 'new' carbs on this morning - starboard needed no adjustments - idled right at 800RPM. Port needed some tuning to get it to 800RPM - it kept wanting to stall (this was the engine that had the stalling problems from the get go - starboard was always fine). Nevertheless, we got em both idling properly - left the dock ... did a couple of runs down the channel ... one run 7-min at about 3300 RPM ... was running great ... you could definitely feel the difference. Slowed down ... came to a stop ...did some slow speed maneuvering with just the clutches ... no problem. At that point - we thought we had it fixed.

As we were heading to the slip, I made my left hand turn down the dock ...and when I pull the port engine into reverse ... it stalled (had just did this 5 times). Went back out into the channel - my mechanic spent the next couple of hours trying to adjust it. He even went so far as to put the good AFB (from the starboard engine) on the port engine. Wouldn't start. He then checked the inline filter and the big brass water separator ... but couldn't get that one apart - didn't have a pipe wrench. He did note that when he was removing the fuel line he saw debris. Finally, he fed the port engine from the generator feed. But at that point ... the engine was so flooded and the plugs fouled ... we could never get the port engine to restart. Called it a day.

Any other things I should be looking at here - what am I missing? I'm starting to think this is a fuel issue. But if so, why would it only manifest itself after 30 minutes of hard running?

/Clint
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tr_guy79
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:02:48 PM(UTC)
tr_guy79

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Clint,

It sounds like you are on the right path. Sounds like a fuel problem. First step would be to get both seperators open and cleaned out. Something I have learned from many years of boating a carbureated (spelling?) boats, is that fuel problems are rarely consistent.

-Shane
"McKenna Renee"
1972 '32 FB Express. Twin 318 / Edelbrock 1409s
Chesapeake City Md (Upper Bay / C&D Canal)
norbie
#4 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:27:19 PM(UTC)
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I'm still working on a similar issue(previous postings re: port eng. quiting at high rpm.
Do not have a fix yet. This problem will not go away.

Norb d
LUNA SEA
32 1986 Sedan Bridge
Norb
1986 32 Marinette Sedan Bridge
jralbert
#3 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:56:03 PM(UTC)
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tr_guy79 wrote:
Sounds like a fuel problem.-Shane
Agree. Is there also an inline filter after the fuel pump? If so, it's often the culprit. That filter is common with the Quadrajet carbs, don't know about the E'brocks.
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
jsimanella
#5 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:34:45 PM(UTC)
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You need to dump the contents of each separator into separate glass jars. Check for water. Be prepared to see more water than fuel, if that's the issue. Remember - fuel floats on water, NOT the other way around...

When I had water issues, they wouldn't crop up until 15 minutes into a good run, sometimes later. What happens is that 1" of water, sitting just below the fuel pickup tube, will become a foot or more, when on plane and forced to the rear of the tank (think triangle). THIS WILL QUICKLY FILL UP YOUR SEPARATORS WITH WATER, choking out the fuel.

I could run, all day long, at the dock - the water stayed below the pickup tube. Only happened when I got up on plane.

If that's your issue, get a small electric fuel pump, rigged to a 1/4" plastic tube (ice maker line). It will slip nicely down the fuel pickup tube, going all the way to the bottom of the tank and bridging that 1" gap. Pump out 5-10 gallons from each tank.

Best way to isolate fuel issues is to rig up an outboard tank (3-6 gallons), with a transfer valve setup. Put it just below the fuel pump and run the engine off of it for a minute, to bleed the air, then go back to the main tank. Then go for a run, get up on plane, and as soon as engine starts to falter - switch to the temporary tank. If your problems vanish, you know it's fuel...

I am currently looking at an issue with the connections on the ballast resistor. Very similar symptoms. Check those connections, as well.

John
--
1987 32 Sedan Bridge
Twin 360s, Rebuilt 2006
Modified/Original Electronic Ignition
Raw Water Cooled
Catawba Island, Ohio
jcs707
#6 Posted : Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:32:13 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the replies.

One symptom I failed to mention was when my mechanic was trying to tune the port 1409 after it started stalling he pointed out that he was seeing quite a bit of water which was causing some back-firing. Question - is it common for this problem to happen only on one engine and never effect the other? Also, we did wire the choke to ballast resistor - how could that cause similar symptoms? I've never had cold start issues - thus I assumed that choke operation wasn't an issue and wiring to the ballast resistor was ok.

I like the outboard tank/transfer valve setup - seems like a simple way to isolate things.

/Clint

edst789
#7 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 12:46:45 AM(UTC)
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Vacuum leaks will also cause an engine to run rough and can seem like carb or fuel problems. I had a stuck wide open pcv valve that I thought was a carb problem for a long time. It was easy to diagnose though I just put my thumb over the vacuum hose to the carb and everything smoothed out. I replaced the pcv valve and things were good. I'm not saying that a vacuum leak is the problem here just saying it would be easy to check out. I put a couple bottles of alcohol Heat or another brand in my fuel tanks every fall to keep out the water.
Jazman
#8 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 2:43:40 AM(UTC)
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Check the anti siphon valves. They are right at the fuel outlet of EACH TANK. I had similar problems when I got my boat and did all the normal stuff...drained the tanks with an electric fuel pump, changed fuel filters (I have 3 on each engine in my boat one IN the carb, one in the line AFTER the fuel pump, one in the line BEFORE the fuel pump), changed the fuel water separators, checked vent lines. I did have water and crap in the tanks...after the water issues were dealt with I still had problems. Boat was still dying. I cut open filters...they were clean, I drained water seperators in to jars and the fuel was clean with NO WATER but I STILL had probs. Turns out that the anti siphon valves were all clogged/gummed up. The boat would run at idle all day, it would run at speed for 10,20,30 mins sometimes even longer then fall on its face. Most of the time I was able to restart but would die soon after again. I pulled the anti siphon valves out and they were packed with all kinds of crap. I replaced them with brass pipe for now so that I know I have full flow and the filters can do their job for the rest of the fuel that I have in my tanks (about 100 gals each side still). when I refill I will replace with new ones. Since I did this I have not had the boat die YET! YET is a KEY WORD!! Hahahah What I THINK was happening is the fuel would flow enough to run the boat for a while and then eventually the pickups in the tank would suck up some more garbage and completely block the fuel flow. Engine would die. I would scrammble down, change a fuel filter and drain the water seperator (both spin on style like an oil filter) thus breaking the vacuum/siphon and the crap would drain BACK to the tank allowing fuel to flow again until it would happen again and I would repeat the entire process. What really clued me in was the LAST time it happened...FRESH filter, FRESH water seperator less than 5 mins run time and it died, spun both off, drained, saved and put new on again...3 mins later did it again same engine, pulled drained saved put new on and 3 mins later did it again. I limped the boat in to where we were heading and relaxed... I was out of new filters and seperators. Dinghyed in and bought more for the return trip. Change 3 more times on the return trip. and yes if your thinking this is getting expensive your RIGHT! I took all the old filters and seperators home and cut them open. Thats 12 cans if your keeping count and almost 3 full gallons of CLEAN GAS from draining. I couldnt have filled a thimble
with the amount of stuff that came out of all of them filters/seperators combined and there wasnt a drop of water to be seen in any of the jugs. HOPEFULLY I ahev cured my issue now and I guess only time will tell but I would say CHECK the anit siphon valves and if they are clogged at all ...GET RID of them for a while and let the filters do their job.
Bill

1975 37' FB Sedan
Sleepless Knights
Bohemia River
Chesapeake City, MD
jhemp3
#9 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 4:00:02 AM(UTC)
jhemp3

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I had some continuing problems of the same sort after washing my boat with the gas cap off, I know what everyone is thinking and everyone is right... dumb is forever; but after replacing the original brass separators with spin-on canisters, I replaced the small in-line filter between the fuel pump and carburator (Rochester) with filters much larger. No problem since (yet).
Jim
Jim Hemphill
Detour
'87 32' FBS, USCG Certification #1057921
Berthed MM 207 Tennessee River, Picwick State Park Marina
jralbert
#10 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 7:19:55 AM(UTC)
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(btw, this excellent thread belongs in mechanical/engine).
Last Feb, our noted Dr Jeff (Fastjeff) posted these points worth repeating here:
1. No in-carb filters allowed (unless one has done # 2 below).
2. A good sized, METAL, in-line filter AFTER the fuel pump.
3. NO fuel filters (fine filtration) BEFORE the fuel pump.
4. A strainer (coarse filtration) located before the fuel pump. Usually doubles as a water separator (critical with "evil-nol" gas).
5. Anti-siphon valves (if equipped) clean and operating properly,
6. Tank vent not blocked by ???
7. Fuel pump (mechanical) producing 5 to 7 psi fuel pressure (via a test gage).
8. Enough fuel in the tank to reach the pickup ON PLANE
9. No kinks or crushed metal fuel lines in the system.
10. Shut off valves not allowing air to be drawn in. (Don't laugh. The stock valves on my boat leaked enough air in to totally screw up the Flo Scan. They do NOT leak fuel, however, or they would be outta there
Joel Albert, Potomac MD
"Charlie B" - 1988 32' FBS
Twin 318's/FWC/16x15 nibral props
docked Deale, MD
jcs707
#11 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 1:55:51 PM(UTC)
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John - you mentioned similar symptoms related to ballast resistor connection. I'm not a mechanic - but if the engine has no cold start issues doesn't that say the choke is operating correctly and thus the ballast resistor connection isn't the issue?

At this point, my plan is to replace the large metal inline filter, dump the contents of the separator, and use a small portable tank to assist with isolating the problem. I would like to say I'm going to check the anti-siphon valves - but I don't even know where's it's located (I'm assuming on the tank fitting somewhere). If so, is it difficult to check?

Also, for those that have already replaced the brass separators with something more serviceable - a reference would be appreciated.

/Clint
fastjeff
#12 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2009 2:06:41 PM(UTC)
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The anti-siphon valves--if you have them--are in the fittings right at the fuel tanks.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Jazman
#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:19:37 AM(UTC)
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On My 1975 37' Sedan bridge... the anti siphon valves were located at the outlet of each tank immediatley after the fuel shut off valve before the actual fuel line. They look kind of like a fitting adapter and were aluminum.
Bill

1975 37' FB Sedan
Sleepless Knights
Bohemia River
Chesapeake City, MD
rv
#15 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:15:21 AM(UTC)
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I have a 1980 28 ft. similar problem. 1st changed coil, same problem. Next removed the check valve., same problem. Next replaced all filters twice, same problem. next changed fuel pump, same problem. Next changed pick up and reluctor problem solved! After solving this problem ran like a champ until the ballast resister broke, now repaired. Ps if the ballast resister is bad you can hold the ignition switch on momentarily and the engine will run
let go of the switch it will stall do not do for long this runs 12 volts through ignition and will fry ignition.
Bob
fastjeff
#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:30:19 PM(UTC)
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It doesn't do the starter much good either!

The first step in fixing an ailing motor is determining if the problem is ignition or fuel related. If the motor surges violently/ quickly, that's usually ignition. If it surges slowly, loosing rpms/ then gaining rpms, that's usually fuel related: carb, dirty fuel, bad pump, etc.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

rv
#17 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:46:18 PM(UTC)
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Mine would run fine and seem like it just ran out of fuel when warmed up. I stalled out one time took, the spark arrestor and actually looked in the carb it was getting plenty of fuel. That's when I looked in my spare parts bag and found a pick up and reluctor this did cure the problem. I was very frustrating you would swear the engine was running out of fuel, I never expected to have electric problems. Like I said The spare parts made it easy to switch parts(having these spare parts on board came in handy) The only thing I didn't have on the boat was the fuel pump. Everything else came with the boat.
Bob
jcs707
#19 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:31:44 AM(UTC)
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Well, ... it looks like it's fixed. Although I think the original Carters were contributing to the problem - I now don't think they were responsible for the problem. Replacing with 1409s didn't fix the problem - but did improved overall performance. What we ended finding was a hairline crack in the rotor button. We replaced it and reset the timing ...and the problem went away.

Thanks for all the feedback ... on to my second project ... stuffing box dripping too much when stopped.

/Clint
fastjeff
#20 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:50:17 AM(UTC)
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Repack with Teflon packing.

Jeff

PS: Easy for me to say it!
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Preldor
#21 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:00:09 PM(UTC)
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Have you checked your distributor to determine if it is advancing properly? I rebuilt my Quadrajunks twice before I found the destributors to be uckked up....

Preldor
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