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Where can i mount my INVERTER?
dequity
#1 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:32:33 PM(UTC)
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Just bought a little 1kw freedom inverter / charger. I have two full sized deep cycle batteries. I'd like to make this inverter run as efficiently as possible. So i want to keep it close to the batteries.

Here are a few of my thoughts. Perhaps you can give a thumbs up or down.

Location: I have a 37' sedan. A wet bar on the port side that I don't use. Thinking of mounting the inverter inside that cabinet. This way i can shut it off if I want to without crawling around. Batteries- My steps go from the main salon down to the galley. There is a sealed off area below and between my engine room and the galley. I could put the two batteries there and they would vent through the engine room. This way they would only be about two feet away from the inverter but still sealed off from the salon.

Hooking it up..???... The 12v side is obvious. And I'll use thick wire and may even get a fuse in line. The 120v side is awquard. it has two plugs and I think it may also have seperae wires to hard mount. (I just bought this on ebay and have not seen the unit yet.) it is a "Fleet' brand of heart interface. The 1000 watt model that surges up to like 4000 wats and has a three stage charger built in.
If I hard wire the inverter in where is the best place to tie into my 120 system? Should I just splice into any 120 lines near the unit? What if I ran a suicide line and just pugged one male into the inverter and the otehr into a wall socket?

I have removed my generator (because I never used it) So al I'mworking with is shore power and inverter.
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
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jsimanella
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2009 5:25:01 PM(UTC)
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I mounted mine (32' sedan) in the wine celler, on the front side of the engine room firewall. I cannot be installed in the engine compartment. Since the batteries are directly behind (I used one 8d battery for my house system), the run is short. You will probably need 1/0 or 2/0 feeders to the inverter - check the manual. You MUST fuse these, as close to the battery as possible!!! - A shorted cable will cause a fire (think 'welder')...

Hopefully, you saved the generator's transfer switch - it's the easiest way to transfer to the inverter. There's lots of other ways (i still have the generator, so I did a hybrid setup), but for you, a transfer switch will get the job done quickly...
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fastjeff
#3 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:53:02 PM(UTC)
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Ditto on what John said about the fuses! West Marine sells all you need here.

Mine (located in the wine cellar) comes with a remote switch that also contains rows of LEDs that tell me how the batteries are doing. Considering how little power is available in a battery, one ends up watching those lights like a hawk when cooking, making coffee in the morning, etc. The point is, you want YOUR own LED display located where you can see it.

Jeff
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dougrose
#4 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2009 12:36:23 AM(UTC)
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At rated output, 1000 watts, your inverter will draw about 100 amps. Of course, at the surge rating of 4000 watts, the draw will be around 400 amps. You need to decide how much of the surge rating you will actually use: quite a lot for starting motors, but almost none for resistive loads like stoves. Then, you can fuse accordingly, from 150 Amps to 400 amps, your choice.

Once you have decided on the fuse, you can select the dc wire, which will need to be rated differently depending whether any of it is in the engine room or not. The wire will need to be anywhere from 2 AWG to 4/0,, per the chart. Refer to the abyc chart on my web site. http://www.geocities.com...t_codes/ABYC_codes.html

When you have chosen the wire size, calculate its resistance from the ohms/1000' column, you will have a couple of feet, and check the manufacturer's info. They will spec a maximum resistance in the leads, or a maximum voltage drop, or some such.

On the 120 V side, you might consider putting the whole boat on it. If the unit has a battery charger, then it has a transfer switch already. You can wire the dock power to the "120 volt in" and the boat's ac panel to the "120 volt out". This will put a load of more than 1000 watts on the built-in transfer switch when operating everything from shore power, but it should be OK because it is less than the inverter's surge rating.

You can pull 15 amps ac (1500 watts) from a plug, but if you want to put the whole boat on it, that won't be enough and you will need to hardwire, which is probably better anyway.

If you only want certain breakers to be fed from the inverter, then you will need to do some wiring on your ac panel.

It would be a big help to have model numbers and such. I could probably be more specific with more information.





1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
pfhlaw
#5 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2009 1:30:49 AM(UTC)
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Matt:
Here's the manual for that unit:
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/1838/docserve.aspx

I mounted mine in the wine cellar.
Peter
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dequity
#6 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2009 2:27:20 AM(UTC)
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Where do I run the ground from the back of the inverter? Also: I have a battery charger in place. How can i run this to my main power grid and not have it go to my charger?

Third: If I ground this to my hull, will this cause electrolisis? Sorry guys, but when it comes to electricity I could use some help. :)

Grounding
For safety purposes, the chassis of the inverter/charger must be connected to your AC ground system. The chassis ground bonding lug is located on the bottom of the unit. This connector can accept two wires, the first is used to connect the unit to AC ground, the second can be used to connect other AC equipment to ground.
Use bare copper insulated wire, solid or stranded. Strip one end and use a screwdriver to secure it to the chassis ground
bonding lug. This wire will connect to the ground in your AC electrical system, typically the vehicle chassis. Make sure the
connection is clean and tight.


10. If installing in a system which includes an existing battery charger or converter, make sure these do not operate
from the inverter output AC power. This sets up a power loop which, due to inefficiencies, will quickly drain the batteries.
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
dougrose
#7 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2009 7:07:18 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the link to the manual, Pete.

You cannot run all your ac through the unit - the internal transfer switch is rated at 15 amps, and your shore power feed is more than that. You will have to limit the load on the inverter.

That's OK. You can only run a few things on it anyway: water heater, air, chargers are all a no-no.

The input is protected by a 15 amp breaker, so you can run a wire from your shore power to the inverter, connecting to the wires there. I would just wire in a 12 awg service cord with a plug on the end that you can plug into the shorepower coming into the boat. Or, wire directly from the shorepower to the inverter.

You can plug your load right into the plug on the unit. It is already breaker protected. When shorepower is available, the output plugs on the inverter will carry it, and the battery will charge. When shorepower is absent, the inverter will make some. sweet.

If you want the inverter to power, say, your wall receptacles, then you will need to rewire the ac panel to remove shorepower from those breakers, and wire same to the inverter output. Again, a service cord will do. Don't try the foolkiller, it's not code.

Battery cables are supposed to come with the unit, and you should fuse it at 200 amps per the manual.

Note that the unit is not explosion protected and cannot share space with engines or flooded batteries.

Let me know what you wish to run off of the inverter, and perhaps we can gin up a schematic.






1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
dequity
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:26:26 AM(UTC)
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All I want it for are wall sockets. The TV, DVD and perhaps an occasional light or fan...

So my big quastions now are:
1. I need to tie into a good ground. If I mount this booger under my wet bar (Port side mide ship saloon area)(37 sedan) where can I ground it?
2. Tie input power lines where the main power hits the main switches. (Near the lower station wheel) That then would share any shore power. But I'm guessing that I can't wire the power output to the same switch because it would then run the battery charger for my starting batteries.Brick wall So do I need to split wire both the port and starboard outlets at the panel? Come to think of it I think my charger is also connected to my starboard outlet switch. I have it plugged into the bulkhead plug in the engine room.

So the idea is to get power to teh entire boat but isolate the battery charger....
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
Roger2
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:04:28 AM(UTC)
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Matt,
On my 37 double cabin, The inverter is connected to the "Gen set - Shore Power" transfer switch. I have to remember to turn off battery charger when I turn on inverter. Also learned NOT to turn inverter on when selector switch is on the generator! ( Gen windings are short circuit across inverter output). There is a disconnect on starboard side of steps down to galley next to the transfer switch & a small switch to power inverter.
When they installed my inverter they forgot to fuse the 12 volt side, something I've got to correct, especialy since wires are long. My inverter is mounted under the stairs going down into the salon from a top the aft cabin. I'll try to get some pictures next trip over.

Roger
Sea Jay
1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
dequity
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:35:30 AM(UTC)
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Roger2 wrote:
Matt,
On my 37 double cabin, The inverter is connected to the "Gen set - Shore Power" transfer switch. I have to remember to turn off battery charger when I turn on inverter. Also learned NOT to turn inverter on when selector switch is on the generator! ( Gen windings are short circuit across inverter output). There is a disconnect on starboard side of steps down to galley next to the transfer switch & a small switch to power inverter.
When they installed my inverter they forgot to fuse the 12 volt side, something I've got to correct, especialy since wires are long. My inverter is mounted under the stairs going down into the salon from a top the aft cabin. I'll try to get some pictures next trip over.

Roger


Thanks Roger. The reason I am avoiding using my gen set hook ups are that I want the unit to charge when I go to shore power. If I switch over to gen set then it breaks from the shore power hook ups and won't allow my inverter to work as a charger.
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
dougrose
#11 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:15:35 AM(UTC)
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Your wall sockets are on 20 amp breakers, both port and starboard, and your inverter and transfer switch is rated for 15 only.

Perhaps you could power only starboard or port sockets, and don't put battery chargers on the circuit you power.

The best way to do this is to rewire the ac panel. Remove the shorepower hot (black) wire from the outlet breaker, and replace with the inverter output hot (black). Wire the inverter ouput neutral (white) to the white to the outlets, making sure that it is disconnected from the shorepower white. Leave the green alone. Wire the ac and dc to the inverter inputs.

When you are on shorepower, the inverter will let both hot and neutral pass through to the outlets. When you are running the outlets from the battery, then the inverter will connect the neutral to green for safety.

Before you do this, you might want to try your loads on the modified sine wave from the inverter to be sure that they will tolerate it. Often TVs, hi-fi, and anything with a motor in it like vacuums, will not work properly on the modified sine wave. The only cure is to buy a true sine wave inverter,


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
dequity
#12 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:54:12 AM(UTC)
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dougrose wrote:
Your wall sockets are on 20 amp breakers, both port and starboard, and your inverter and transfer switch is rated for 15 only.

Perhaps you could power only starboard or port sockets, and don't put battery chargers on the circuit you power.

The best way to do this is to rewire the ac panel. Remove the shorepower hot (black) wire from the outlet breaker, and replace with the inverter output hot (black). Wire the inverter ouput neutral (white) to the white to the outlets, making sure that it is disconnected from the shorepower white. Leave the green alone. Wire the ac and dc to the inverter inputs.

When you are on shorepower, the inverter will let both hot and neutral pass through to the outlets. When you are running the outlets from the battery, then the inverter will connect the neutral to green for safety.

Before you do this, you might want to try your loads on the modified sine wave from the inverter to be sure that they will tolerate it. Often TVs, hi-fi, and anything with a motor in it like vacuums, will not work properly on the modified sine wave. The only cure is to buy a true sine wave inverter,


Not a bad idea.


Hmmm... question: By having the power of one side of the boat always running through the modified sine wave inverter does that mean that the inverter will always be on and always changing the waves to modified sine waves? Or if I turn it off would the power simply pass through from the shore power?
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
dequity
#13 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:00:29 AM(UTC)
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Let me make this discussion MUCH MORE DIFFICULT!Think

I also currently have a 600 watt pure sine wave inverter. This inverter has no charger. Am i better off using this inverter and charging the batteries with a seperate charger? I'm thinking it would be a bad idea to run two types of inverter off of one batterry bank at once.
37' Sedan Twin Cat 3208s!
dougrose
#14 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:00:22 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
question: By having the power of one side of the boat always running through the modified sine wave inverter does that mean that the inverter will always be on and always changing the waves to modified sine waves? Or if I turn it off would the power simply pass through from the shore power?


The transfer switch built in to the inverter/charger will, when shorepower is available, connect the shorepower straight thru, turn off the inverter, and turn on the power supply. That is what is so appealing about these units.

Quote:
I also currently have a 600 watt pure sine wave inverter. This inverter has no charger. Am i better off using this inverter and charging the batteries with a seperate charger? I'm thinking it would be a bad idea to run two types of inverter off of one batterry bank at once.


The sine wave inverter is preferred for sensitive loads. The modified sinewave is awful, some 47% harmonic distortion, and you should try each load to see what it will put up with. Things with motors, especially, get hotter than designed. Stoves could care less.

Your 600 watt inverter does not have a transfer switch built-in, so you will need one, or will need to plug it in and out or something.

The battery charger, water heater, air conditioning, and other not-for-battery loads should be connected to the shorepower before the inverter. Never connect an inverter output to anything but loads.

In principle, I don't see a reason why you couldn't have both inverters on at the same time, but I have never tried it. I currently have a small sinewave inverter that I can plug in to dc for sensitive loads, and put away when not needed. I have an inverter designed in, with a manual switch to select modes. Haven't bought it yet, for $everal reason$.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
fastjeff
#15 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:22:51 PM(UTC)
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Being a proponent of the KISS Principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid) I set up another pair of outlets running off my inverter. On the hook, we simple move the plugs to the "inverter outlets". A less obvious advantage to this is that an AC power user, that you 'forgot' to turn off, isn't being run by the inverter, killing the batteries even sooner.

A word on wire gage: Unless the batteries are located WAY away from the inverter, then don't worry about wire gage. Standard, starting the motor size battery cables do just as well, as I have seen, since the capacity of a storage battery is so damn limited.

Jeff
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dougrose
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:48:01 PM(UTC)
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The inverter we a talking about here comes with wires for the input, so you can just use those ( if they are with it). If you use new wires, do follow the required sizes per the ABYC chart, and use red hot and yellow return. Jeff's extra outlets would be a great way to go if you don't need to run a lot of stuff -- and it would be easy to use both inverters, the sine wave one for the TV, perhaps.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
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