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Pulsing lights and tach during night runnning
GB49
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:12:01 PM(UTC)
GB49

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The last 2 nights I've been getting back to the dock after sunset. I noticed 2 things and I'm not sure if they are related or not.

1) While idling or slightly above idle the nav lights, primarily the 180 light, will pulse as if on a dimmer switch at about 1Hz. When running around 2900rpm the nav lights are fine but the digital synchronizer light pulses ever so slightly. While idling in the channel I can goose the port throttle and force the lights to flicker and back to idle and all is fine. Didn't try it but I don't think the starboard throttle is having this effect.

2) While in route around 2900rpm the port tach on bridge begins to flop around +/- 10rpm but I CAN'T hear/feel any engine change and the tach at the lower helm appears to be normal. It only seems to do this while at cruising speed only.

I'm going to clean/check all connections on back of the tach and pull the alternator to have it tested at the local marine repair place.
I was going to breakout my meter but I didn't feel like fooling around in the engine room on the lake at night.

I'm not sure if these 2 issues are related or not since they appear to occur independently of each other.

I have the 2 wire alternators and just replaced the voltage regulaters on both engines. The port alternator is an obvious replacement as it has no Chrysler paint. It is a Prestolite.

Any ideas?

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
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bpboater
#3 Posted : Wednesday, September 02, 2009 12:59:30 AM(UTC)
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Could the ground wire on the bus under the flybridge be loose or corroded? I think the ground for the running lights runs back to the bridge. The tachs will also use this bus bar. I have noticed that my gauges (volts, temperature, and fuel) all jump up a little when I turn on the nav lights, which also turns on the gauge lights. Some kind of crossfeed that I never bothered to figure out. I just know it happens and so the setpoint on the gauges is a little different if the running lights are on.
Barkleydave
#4 Posted : Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:26:55 PM(UTC)
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Your nav lites etc are leaking to ground. Begin by cleaning everything on the boards on the FB. Gunk, moisture etc collects on the circuitry and in this case it is bleeding when the Nave lites are fired up. It also can be and highly likely there is isolation leak on one or more of your nav lite sockets causing a slight drain to ground and dimming the lights. Dirty ground connections can also cause the same system.

Suggest you start by isolating your nav. light curcuits. Disconned one at a time including ground and check for symptoms. When you find it it will be a simple fix. Best of luck.

Safe Boating,

dave
None
dougrose
#5 Posted : Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:21:27 PM(UTC)
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You might try putting a voltmeter across your power to see if the voltage is indeed changing. The automotive-style does not respond fast enough, a multimeter with a needle is probably the best.

If you have a voltage flutter in your system, it is likely caused by the alternators.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
GB49
#6 Posted : Saturday, September 05, 2009 6:26:11 AM(UTC)
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Alternator tested at 50A in both directions, not that direction should matter.
Suggested checking the connection to the voltage regulator which I had recently replaced.

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
GB49
#7 Posted : Monday, September 07, 2009 12:39:49 PM(UTC)
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Reinstalled alternator and checked all contacts. Everything looked good. Started up and still pulsing but this time I was able to hear the alternator pulsing like a failing bearing or something. When the alt pulsed the lights pulsed. It only did it around 1300 rpm. Anything over or under was fine.
I also measured nearly 16V from the orange positive wire from the alternator. The voltage ranged from 14.8 to 15.6V when the pulsing occurred. I tried 2 different voltage regulators and swapped the other engine regulator and they all checked out ok.
I'm guessing the alternator is having a problem but I just don't know for sure. I do know 15+ volts is not good!

May swap alternators this week and see what happens.

Will talk with Lakeland Auto again and see what they recommend.

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
jsimanella
#8 Posted : Monday, September 07, 2009 4:03:18 PM(UTC)
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Why not switch to the 1-wire jobs from Fulton Armature? Think I paid ~ $120 each, for 100a Delco's. Just changed the wires to #4 AWG.
--
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dougrose
#9 Posted : Monday, September 07, 2009 11:23:58 PM(UTC)
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When you use an external regulator, the voltage on the output of a good alternator could be 16 V. The regulator tries to set the voltage on its sense lead, usually connected to the ignition, and cranks up the alternator until it gets it.

Voltage on the battery should not be so high. The lost voltage is voltage drop between alternator and battery. You can measure this directly by measuring between alternator output and battery positive. Measure also from alternator case to battery negative. There is also some drop on the return (ground) side.

With the one-wire alternator, the output of the alternator is maintained at, probably, 14.7 volts. The wire to the battery must be sized to give proper charging voltage at the battery itself.

If you have ammeters at the helm, you likely have the orange alternator wire going up there, and then back down to the battery. If so, there can be a lot of voltage lost up and back. Neither of my Ms had ammeters, so I don't know if they ever used them or not.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
DiverDennis
#10 Posted : Tuesday, September 08, 2009 10:23:36 AM(UTC)
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dougrose wrote:
...If you have ammeters at the helm, you likely have the orange alternator wire going up there, and then back down to the battery. If so, there can be a lot of voltage lost up and back.
I am familiar with this. The other day I discoverd that the voltage at the 25A circuit breaker on the engine was .5v higher than the voltage at the ship's power buss (after the shunt on the ammeter) UNDER LOAD. The readings were the same with no load. The resistance of the #10 gauge wire feeding the ammeter + the resistance of the shunt was dropping .5volts!

This is how I troubleshot it:
checked the 25A circuit breaker (CB) (.01 OHMS, OK)
checked the connections at the CB (cleaned them up, OK)
checked the voltage at the CB - 12.8V (both sides under load)
checked the voltage on the #10 red wire that goes from the CB, thru an engine harness plug, under the oil filter, thru another engine harness plug, and up thru the shunt to the AMMETER post - 12.3V (.5V drop).
Cut off the old ring terminals and crimped on new ones. No change. Ran a new #10 AWG wire from CB to AMMETER post. Bingo. This got rid of .3V of drop. Put wire labels on new #10 and a 'not used' on the old #10.

Also checked and cleaned both batterie's connections and the GROUNDs: one from the batteries to the hull ground point, from hull to engine block, and from engine block to SHIPS GROUND BUSS at helm. Checked the BATTERY SWITCH's connectons too.

Still have a .2v drop across the ammeter shunt. Ordered a new digital ammeter and shunt. I will post the results of the new install.

DD


Picture shows 25A circuit breaker removed.
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old32
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 08, 2009 10:51:26 AM(UTC)
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i had an even worse problem .on the way back to the dock saturday i noticed when i adjusted the trim tabs the new engine skipped. later pulling in to the dock both engines stalled i drifted over a shallow point and bent the new prop i just put on 3 hours before.so sunday i start investigating and only have 10.5 volts feeding the ballast resistor and about 6 out.checked the switch and had 10.5 pulled on the wire from it the the ammeter nothing was loose but voltage came back .i think the connections in side the ammeter are failing.


tim
72 32' express
"http://www.theboaters.com/boats/Powerboat_Express_Cruiser_marinette_1972_anticipation"
NightMoves
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:39:38 AM(UTC)
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Bad luck that sucks

Mike
GB49
#15 Posted : Tuesday, September 08, 2009 3:06:15 PM(UTC)
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Will check supply voltage to the regulator. If the regulator is not getting proper 12 volts it can cause wonky alternator output. Also may pull alternator and regulator and have both tested at the shop.
I could go single wire alternator but I'm not 100% sure that is the problem. Something could be wrong with wiring elsewhere. I'd rather switch to single wire alts after I figure out what the problem is.
Will try to fiddle with it tomorrow.

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
fastjeff
#16 Posted : Tuesday, September 08, 2009 10:37:40 PM(UTC)
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Ever mess with outboards? Most of the older ones only have a rectifier--that's all--to convert AC voltage to DC. No regulator at all! Put a meter on the battery and you wouldn't believe what you see: voltage spikes all over the place!

I suspect that's what's happening here, a bad rectifier in the alternator.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

DiverDennis
#13 Posted : Wednesday, September 09, 2009 8:39:51 AM(UTC)
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old32 wrote:
i had an even worse problem....checked the switch and had 10.5. tim
Sorry to hear about your bent wheel. That sucks d'oh!

What switch are you referring to? IGN?
Surface Interval
1975 28' Express, Single M360
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old32
#17 Posted : Wednesday, September 09, 2009 9:21:13 AM(UTC)
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dennis, it was the ign it feeds from the ammeter almost beside it.i'm sorry to.my wallet is taking a hit this year.


tim
72 32' express
"http://www.theboaters.com/boats/Powerboat_Express_Cruiser_marinette_1972_anticipation"
GB49
#18 Posted : Wednesday, September 09, 2009 11:08:53 AM(UTC)
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Did some more poking around and found the supply wire to the voltage regulator is only showing ~11.8V when engine is running. This low voltage can be traced via both helm instrument clusters. The wire supposedly connects to the ignition switches but the schematics in the Chrysler and Marinette manuals seem to contradict the actual wiring on the boat. I'm sure this wiring was done at the factory, it does not look like some kind of hiljack wiring. The voltage reg feed wire goes in series with the oil pressure switch (not the oil pressure sending unit) then to the hot side of the 25A breaker on top of the engine. Then supposed to run up to the volt meter but it appears to run to the tachs and then gets "daisy chained" around to the volt meter. At both tach feeds I'm seeing 11.xx volts.

So, I have to begin breaking/bypassing connections in the circuit 1 at a time. I will start with the oil switch and 25A breaker. I'm leaning toward "mechanical" failures first then focus on age/heat damaged wire

To contrast the problem the starboard voltage regulator feed wire is showing a nice, stable 13.6V.

Will see what happens.

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
Roger2
#19 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:01:43 AM(UTC)
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Karl,
I think you can save yourself some time by having the alternater checked. If lights are pulsing 2 of the three rectifiers in the alternater must be out.

Roger
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1983 37 double cabin, twin 230hp Volvo diesels, twin disk 1.5-1 20X 23 4 blade props
DiverDennis
#20 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:14:58 AM(UTC)
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Roger2 wrote:
Karl, I think you can save yourself some time by having the alternater checked.Roger
GB49 wrote:
Alternator tested at 50A in both directions, not that direction should matter.-Karl
What happens when you disconnect the load side of the 25A breaker? What kind of readings do you get with the engine off?
Surface Interval
1975 28' Express, Single M360
Specs: http://www.boatm8.com/my...amp;page=boats&arr=0
old32
#21 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:33:15 AM(UTC)
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dennis ,how is your ammeter wired.has your new engine harness got an orange return wire .i think mine always reads load because the alt feeds into the red now not the orange.

tim
72 32' express
"http://www.theboaters.com/boats/Powerboat_Express_Cruiser_marinette_1972_anticipation"
GB49
#22 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:00:09 PM(UTC)
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Oil pressure switch appears to be the culprit. Bypassing the switch makes all systems normal.
Will replace the switch and see what happens.

-Karl
1986, 32' Sedan, twin 360ci, 275hp Chrysler's w/ K&N flame arrestors
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