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Wanted to buy...Center dump exhaust manifolds for Chrysler 360s in Ohio
SailingZs
#1 Posted : Monday, May 31, 2010 10:21:21 AM(UTC)
SailingZs

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Time for an upgrade to my 1985 Marinette. I live in Dublin and boat out of Marblehead. Would love to pick up a set of these to improve fuel/HP for a fair price...

Thanks!!

Bill
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dougrose
#2 Posted : Monday, May 31, 2010 1:54:44 PM(UTC)
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My granddad designed engines back in the twenties and knew a lot about them. He always said that engine improvements have to be made on the intake side, the exhaust takes care of itself.

I have heard that center dumps don't improve performance much, and may not be worth the effort. Perhaps someone on the forum has done this and can say what the change is, if any.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
cap'n Brent
#3 Posted : Monday, May 31, 2010 3:59:40 PM(UTC)
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Ive herd the same on center dumps althuogh on a car stock manifolds with stock pipping will under preform tuned headers n tuned pipes I also agree you build better preformence on intake side porting polishing valve work what gose in must come out fast with low restriction it just seems to me the only way to increace milage is be smooth on bottem and light on top as low rpm as you can get on plane. if you finde some and go that way let us know if you see any change



HP Chadwick bay Sunset Bay lake Erie NY boat name Sunrise 32' f/b fisherman chry 318 twin blue bastards,28'express singel 318
"It would be a labor of love, if I loved to labor" cpt Brent
yooper
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 01, 2010 2:42:40 AM(UTC)
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I installed center dumps on my 1980 single engine and had a problem. I got water backwashing into the engine because on a single the engine is mounted low right down into the V and the system was too low. The original centerdumps have two parts, the riser and the manifold. The replacements, which I used, have three. There is a 1" spacer between the riser and manifold. The spacers are stackable. The fix for me was to add another 1" height with another spacer and longer bolts. I think the parts were made by OSCO. The other thing I remember is that you have negotiate price for the whole order. Some places charged less for the riser than other places but more for the manifold. The last bit of advice is to only make the upgrade when you need new exhausts not for performance which is supposed to be about 15 HP.
RiverRatt
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 01, 2010 3:54:40 AM(UTC)
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I was thinking of installing center dumps when I rebuilt the engines. But for 5 to 15 hp gain with a lesser percentage of efficiency increase (If the engine "breathes" better more fuel is going to be pulled thru the carb. There is no free lunch for more horsepower) the cost of new manifolds out way any HP increase or efficiency gain.
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fastjeff
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 01, 2010 6:35:59 AM(UTC)
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You realize that you'll have to re due all the downstream exhaust piping? Pain in the butt! From what I've heard the only difference is seen on a dyno, at WOT and max rpms. In addition, logs make the motor easier to work on--less stuff in the way. Finally, some of the center riser parts are no longer made, so you'll have to do some scrounging.

I'd stay with the logs. Seriously.

Jeff
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dougrose
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 01, 2010 10:31:18 AM(UTC)
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Modern engines are more fuel efficient than carbureted ones: most of the gain has been in the fuel injection systems.

I was wondering if it is possible to retrofit EFI to these old engines? New intake manifold, MAS, high-pressure fuel pump for the rail, and all those little injectors, as well as the dread computer. Might be cheap to buy from a junkyard. The highway computer profile would likely be wrong, but you can buy off-road chips with various profiles. Actually, I would be comfortable drilling and tapping the existing manifold to take the injectors....


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
fastjeff
#9 Posted : Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:44:47 PM(UTC)
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One can buy a lot of gas for what all that EFI claptrap costs!

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Rick100
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:22:55 AM(UTC)
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dougrose wrote:
Modern engines are more fuel efficient than carbureted ones: most of the gain has been in the fuel injection systems.

I was wondering if it is possible to retrofit EFI to these old engines? New intake manifold, MAS, high-pressure fuel pump for the rail, and all those little injectors, as well as the dread computer. Might be cheap to buy from a junkyard. The highway computer profile would likely be wrong, but you can buy off-road chips with various profiles. Actually, I would be comfortable drilling and tapping the existing manifold to take the injectors....


I looked into that on my 318's but had a hard time finding a place for the O2 sensor. Thought about using the choke crossover but found it was not hot enough to properly fire the O 2. Gain would be small compared to cost. A late model efi marine engine will show big gains in performance and economy over the same engine with a carb. Carbs are like 4 ply nylon tires ( lumpy when cold ) compared to modern radial tires. Efi can do for your boat what it has done for your car. Rick
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
SailingZs
#10 Posted : Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:59:48 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for all the comments!!!! I am convinced to just enjoy the boat as it is...
fastjeff
#11 Posted : Wednesday, June 02, 2010 5:51:35 AM(UTC)
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The correct placement of an O2 sensor is not random! It has to be exactly where it will work correctly or it will false signal.

Jeff

PS: From wehat I've seen, a properly set up carb produces identical gas mileage to EFi at a CONSTANT cruising rpm. Variations in throttle settings is where EFI shines.
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dougrose
#12 Posted : Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:32:27 AM(UTC)
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Hmm. The O2 sensors on my Mustang are well downstream of where the water would be dumped in if it was a boat. And I don't suppose the sensors would care for the salt. Good point.

Fuel injected aircraft show little efficiency improvement over carburated ones, but the "set up" is done by the pilot in-flight with the mix lever. Again, constant rpm. I didn't think of that, either.,

Most power gains come from better rpm due to better breathing. To take advantage, the props must be adjusted, not so fun.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
Rick100
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:08:46 AM(UTC)
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Carbs are stone age technology. I'll take a fuel injected engine any time and get about twice the economy at a higher cruising speed. Same goes for points vs electronic ignition. You won't get the big gains in economy by deep sixing the points or for that matter the distributor but will gain in smother running and much less maintenance. An O2 -- feedback electronic engine will adjust the mixture to perfection in micro seconds and keep it that way all day long. Coming to a boat soon will be direct injection of the fuel much like a diesel.
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
dougrose
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 03, 2010 3:48:25 AM(UTC)
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I don't know why, but the changes seem to be coming to outboards. The Bombardier (Evinrude) 2-strokes being a good example. I guess marine inboards will always have to be an adaptation of what works on the highway rather than a new design for boats.

Actually, my boat is powered with engines that find their widest use in forklifts and generators.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
fastjeff
#16 Posted : Thursday, June 03, 2010 9:19:33 PM(UTC)
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Sorry, Rick, but EFI doesn't get anywhere near "twice as good" economy! A properly set up carb is damn close to an EFI setup in economy at a constant cruising rpm, and the boat test figures prove it.

If you work with as many boaters as I do (on another forum) then you learn EFI has its own problems. The many injectors, for example, don't like being left unused for months at a time, and the marine environment plays hell with critical electrical connections running on only 5 to 6 volts. Worst of all, one can't fix EFI with a screw driver like one can a carb! So it's not all streak and gravy out there in EFI World.

Jeff
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Rick100
#17 Posted : Friday, June 04, 2010 12:41:09 AM(UTC)
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Fastjeff wrote:
Sorry, Rick, but EFI doesn't get anywhere near "twice as good" economy! A properly set up carb is damn close to an EFI setup in economy at a constant cruising rpm, and the boat test figures prove it.

If you work with as many boaters as I do (on another forum) then you learn EFI has its own problems. The many injectors, for example, don't like being left unused for months at a time, and the marine environment plays hell with critical electrical connections running on only 5 to 6 volts. Worst of all, one can't fix EFI with a screw driver like one can a carb! So it's not all streak and gravy out there in EFI World.

Jeff


I based my example on a 38' Chris Craft glass boat that had 430 Lincolns in it. It would cruise at about 16 miles per hour and get .5 to .6 mpg. We re powered it with big block mpi Chevy engines and now get 1.2 to 1.5 at a cruising speed of 28 mph. I would call that a significant increase it both speed and economy. Look into what a efi with pod drives will do for speed and economy. The connections used on a modern f i engine are what they call weather pack and do a very good job of sealing out the elements. For repairs you plug in a diagnostic computer and it will generally tell you what the problem is and from there it's pretty much screw driver and wrench time. In the 40 years that I have worked on cars and boats for a living I've seen it go from points, crappy carbs, real crappy wiring and connections, 6 volt batteries and generators to what we have now. I'll take now any time and hope to live long enough to see the next generation of marine and automotive engineering. Like it or not it's coming and it can't be stopped so we might as well embrace it and learn how to deal with it and learn how to repair it. Rick
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
Roger2
#18 Posted : Friday, June 04, 2010 12:48:07 AM(UTC)
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Sounds like you added enough HP to get fully up on plane, and probably reduced the weight considerbly from the big Lincoln engines. I believe there's more involved than just carbs to EFI.

Roger
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Rick100
#15 Posted : Friday, June 04, 2010 12:51:20 AM(UTC)
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dougrose wrote:
I don't know why, but the changes seem to be coming to outboards. The Bombardier (Evinrude) 2-strokes being a good example. I guess marine inboards will always have to be an adaptation of what works on the highway rather than a new design for boats.

Actually, my boat is powered with engines that find their widest use in forklifts and generators.


Evinrude has raised the bar in out board technology to a very lofty position. The new 4 strokes are nice but there is a price to pay in weight.
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
Rick100
#19 Posted : Friday, June 04, 2010 1:58:00 AM(UTC)
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Roger2 wrote:
Sounds like you added enough HP to get fully up on plane, and probably reduced the weight considerbly from the big Lincoln engines. I believe there's more involved than just carbs to EFI.

Roger


The Chris was on plane with the Lincolns and the engine weight was close with some weight savings. Switching from paragon trans to Hurth did save some weight. The props, shafts and struts were changed to accommodate the increase in hp and torque which added some weight but not much. The rest of the boat is unchanged. The water line marks are just about the same. It's not just switching from carbs to f i it's switching from carbs to computer control fuel management, much better engine breathing, roller cams with better profiles, computer control timing and a host of other engine upgrades. Along with this the air is better to breath. Look at it this way--run an old car in a garage and you will die in about 45 minutes from carbon monoxide poisoning -- run a new car and you will survive much longer. The high carbon monoxide readings are because the fuel is not being burned properly like it is in a modern engine.
When I die I hope my wife sells my stuff for more than I told her I paid for it.
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