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Hull potential
trontek
#1 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 5:56:31 AM(UTC)
trontek

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I think I asked before - but I'm gettin' old. Do I want my hull potential + or - with respect to the water, and WHY? My thoughts are for it to be + since electrons flow - to +. Someone please enlighten me(maybe that's still possible....!).


Thanks
Jim

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Barkleydave
#2 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 11:01:35 AM(UTC)
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Potential range for Alluminum:

-.94- -1.05 MV (Negative)

dave
None
trontek
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:52:29 AM(UTC)
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Barkleydave wrote:
Potential range for Alluminum:

-.94- -1.05 MV (Negative)

dave


How do I keep the electrons in the makeup of my hull from migrating to the water with these potentials? Not to argue - just to try to make it make sense to me....

Jim

Barkleydave
#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 5:59:19 AM(UTC)
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There is no argument. Here is the information to support the numbers. There lots of threads that go into the science in depth.

It all deals with the Noble Scale of metals.

Which voltage reading comes from a vessel's bonding system that's protecting underwater metals from seawater corrosion?

A) 0 mV
B) -405 mV
C) -536 mV
D) -908 mV
E) -1420 m

The correct answer is D.



The recommended range of cathodic protection for a vessel depends on hull material and underwater metals:

Hull Type Recommended Range
Fiberglass w/ Inboard Engine(s) -750 to -1000 mV
Fiberglass w/ Aluminum Outdrive(s) -900 to -1050 mV
Aluminum -900 to -1100 mV Steel -800 to -1050 mV
Wood -550 to -600 mV

Voltage readings below (more positive) indicate that underwater metals
connected to the bonding system are under-protected and may be corroding.

Voltage readings above (more negative) indicate that underwater metals
connected to the bonding system are over-protected and causing vessel
damage.



Voltages Below Recommended

Each underwater metal is protected from corrosion when its cathodic
protection system is able to induce and maintain a negative shift of at least
200 mV. For the four most common marine metals this means:

Aluminum (e.g., outdrives, hulls)
• Minimum corrosion protection voltage is -900mV

Mild Steel (e.g., hulls, rudders, tanks)
• Minimum corrosion protection voltage is -800 mV

Stainless Steel (e.g., propeller shafts, rudder posts, trim tabs, propellers)
• Minimum protection voltage is -750 mV

Bronze (e.g., propellers, thru hull fittings, seacocks, struts)
• Minimum corrosion protection is -550 mV

If the voltage of one of your underwater metals is less (more positive) than
these, you need to check your cathodic protection system -- usually done by
simply replacing depleted sacrificial anodes.



Voltages Exceeding Recommended

Overprotection can create conditions that damage underwater hull coatings, aluminum alloy metals and wooden hulls.

• Steel and fiberglass hulls -- decreased effectiveness of anti-fouling
paints and barrier coatings when made more negative than -1100 mV.

• Aluminum hulls and outdrives -- highly susceptible to alkali corrosion of
its metal, and hydrogen blistering of its paint coatings, when made more
negative than -1200 mV.

• Wooden hulls -- destruction of wood fibers (alkali delignification) occurs
around metal fittings made more negative than -650 mV.



Overprotection usually occurs from one the following conditions:
Using the wrong type of anodes (e.g., magnesium anodes in saltwater);

• A defective impressed-current corrosion controller;

• Stray DC currents originating from defective wiring or equipment within
your vessel.

The most common source of stray currents is a defective bilge pump, float
switch or wire insulation -- each of which carry +12 VDC submerged in bilge
water. Make sure these electrical devices (and wire splices!) are inspected
and tested for electrical leakage.

Source: BoatZincs.com


Hope this helps,

dave

None
Docsnow
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:32:02 AM(UTC)
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Dave,

Good info hopefully Joel,will put it in the tip & things thread Pray

Norm,

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trontek
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:26:19 AM(UTC)
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Thanks, Dave. I'll mull that over for awhile. Isn't our hulls made up of aluminum molecules and aren't molecules made up of atoms and aren't atoms made up of electrons, neutrons and protons? I know this is basic, but if this is true(and we agree that electrons flow - to+, it's still the polarity that is screwing up my thoughts.

Doesn't our hull(plural, in my case) become the cathode(I'm thinking tubes and transistors here), if it's negative with respect to the water? What's gonna keep my hull aluminum molecules/atoms, electrons from becoming part of the water around them - leaving holes behind? 'Course this boat is still relatively dry since 1963....

My head is starting to hurt....maybe it will make more sense after this next glass!
Jim

trontek
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:56:04 AM(UTC)
trontek

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Barkleydave wrote:
There is no argument. Here is the information to support the numbers. There lots of threads that go into the science in depth.

It all deals with the Noble Scale of metals.


• Aluminum hulls and outdrives -- highly susceptible to alkali corrosion of
its metal, and hydrogen blistering of its paint coatings, when made more
negative than -1200 mV.

• Wooden hulls -- destruction of wood fibers (alkali delignification) occurs
around metal fittings made more negative than -650 mV.




Right here it seems to indicate more damage is done at higher negative levels. Why wouldn't + stop that??
Jim

Barkleydave
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:56:52 AM(UTC)
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One must also must ask...why does lighting often strike from the ground up? Well it does and I have no idea why.... but I went to severe weather school years ago and they had high speed cameras that captured the strike ground up cloud. Blew my mind.

One only needs to know that less noble metals will shed electrons to protect more noble. That is why an anode will sacrifice itself and protect the props and hull from being eaten away. Now remove anodes and the alluminum is next in line and will try and protect the nibril bronze props.

Just keeping your bottom painted with epoxy and bottom paint so there are no exposed bare alluminum will go along ways to protect the hull.



As so it goes... have another cold one and think spring!


dave
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trontek
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:14:48 AM(UTC)
trontek

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Dave, I've read that the only true statement about lightening is that it travels from - to +(there's that polarity thing that screws me up again....), just as all other electron travel. We see it going the other because its pointy end(bow?) is on the ground. You rub enough electrons off one cloud, onto another and that cloud becomes positively charged and looks for electrons in order to become stable again. It may yank them from another cloud, the ground - or even thru my boat if it's in the way.

Other folks join in. I'm trying to learn here....besides, this is pretty good Burgundy(cheeep but good)! Sittin' here waitin on this rain to turn to snow. AGAIN!
Jim

HuckFinn
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:53:15 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for that post Dave,
There's a BigM houseboat across from me that has an unpainted hull for 8 yrs now with no problems. theory is that the electric will spread over a larger surface area without eating a hole in a small pinhole where paint failed... the 90' houseboats I saw at at a boat show don't have paint either, they'd cost a small fortune to paint anyway!
PT-73
1973 32' FB Express

Chrysler 318's
Barkleydave
#11 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:54:41 PM(UTC)
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Correct most alluminum hulls remain unpainted. They use anodes on shafts and props but not the hull.

Also re: polarity.

Polarity is easy to reverse and is done all the time.

Example: My British 1957 MGA is Positive Ground. DC does not care as long as there is a ground path.

dave
None
fastjeff
#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:40:10 PM(UTC)
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I'd leave my hull unpainted as well, but it would soon be so covered with barnacles and slime that it couldn't make plane!

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

trontek
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:45:25 AM(UTC)
trontek

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I think it finally makes sense - at least to me and that is where I wanted to get to. After that second glass, I was lying in th' bunk listening to Comrade Obama's speech and it made sense(not his speech - this polarity thing). What I've been thinking of as my boat is really one plate of a simple battery, immersed in Defeated Creek electrolite. Since I can't make the hull positive in polarity, my job is to keep it less negative(same as making it more positive). Think

If my boat is the negative plate of this simple 1.2v dc cell, what's acting as the positive plate(or does this battery NEED a positive plate?). I sure am glad Garcia used such thick aluminum plate and wouldn't mind if he had used thicker. Does the pitting slow any as corosion builds up in the tiny pits? Eh?

The rain turned to snow about an hour ago. Hopefully it will slow down.

Thanks for tolerating me, folks
Jim

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