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Anodes - too much of a good thing?
BCassedy
#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 08, 2011 9:44:22 PM(UTC)
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I've been working on the boat and am at the anode replacement phase.

Symptom: For some unexplained reason a PO had doubled up on the amount of anodes:
ie: 2 - 12" sections on each trim tab
2 - 6' sections on keel (1 - 6' on each side)
2 - 6" sections on each rudder

I'd ordered the recommended amount from boatzincs.com (1 - 12" for each trim tab, 1 - 6" for each rudder, 2 - 3' for keel <1 on each side>).

From what I've been able to find on the site, too much anode is a bad thing? Capac readings had been at .9 all last summer. Of course, when I checked the Capac unit on the bottom of the boat, it appears to have been painted over (somebody couldn't read! Brick wall . I'm going to try and clean that up (no sanding, doubt there's and chemical that I could use (Suggestions?)

There's no active corrosion noticed (only that which had occured before and a PO had painted over). The old anodes had a fair amount of surface deterioration but after cleaning them up, they appear to be in re-usable shape.

So, 2 questions: 1. Was the doubling of the amount of anodes a bad thing?
2. If not, could the best of the old, usable sections be reapplied with
the newly purchased anodes? (ie. doubling up again (if it's not a
bad thing).

Bill
Bill & Sharon Cassedy
" Sunset Seeker "
1988 32' Fly Bridge
Twin 318 Cu In / 240HP Chrysler power plants
Raw water cooling
Freshwater boat
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Barkleydave
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 7:44:32 AM(UTC)
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I a surprised you got a reading with the Cathode painted? I would question the reading of .9

For alluminum max. is -1.05 MV

Readings will vary greatly depending on water quality and salinity. (More brakish water is a better conductor of current)

IMO I would replace with the recommended surface area. Clean cathode and see where your readings are from there.

If you find it does not fall within the target range you can add additional anodes to bring numbers up.

And yes, over protectionn can blister paint and worse can leach alloys from your alluminum hull welds...not a good thing.

One thought is if you keep the old anodes they probably have lost all or most of the contact with the hull, rudder, and tabs.
It does not take long for crude to destroy the contact.





safe boating,

dave





None
Jack Marchand
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 9:26:43 AM(UTC)
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My anodes were in pretty rough shape when I bought the boat last spring, I took off the trim plate ones and showed them to Norm (docsnow) and he told me grinding would bring them back, something I hadn't even considered. My readings last year were .7 in fresh, clean, cold water and after doing the bottom paint and grinding all the old anodes I now have .89. (Thanks Norm!) Also I called John A. about replacement anodes (before Norm and I talked)and he was spot on with my keel anodes being to big (the same as yours) and quoted me new corect size ones. Now, even with the old ones in place I'm in the right range and saved a bunch by grinding for an hour or so with spring prep. JAM
75 FB express, "Big Enough II" twin 318s, 950hrs, raw water cooling, 1 to 1 transmisions, Beautiful Lake Charlevoix, MI

Docsnow
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 9:45:32 AM(UTC)
Docsnow

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Jack

I believe I suggest S.S.wire brushing Whistle grinding may B over doing it Whistle

Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Dancing
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

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 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Docsnow
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 9:50:38 AM(UTC)
Docsnow

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All good points Dave B.made like Dave said the starting point will B getting the sensor clean been thinking about how to clean it I was thinking the stuff that’s called Peel Away I used it to remove the A/F paint on the bottom it soften the A/F pretty much as I had a bout 5/6 coats I doubt there R that many coats on the sensor. The way I’d go about it is slather the area than tape some plastic wrap over the area let it set 24hr than take a rag & wipe a way what U can see were U R at than if U think U need another coat apply again when U start seeing metal I’d than carefully start wiping down with a lacquer thinner again I caution wipe gently once U start to see metal,BTW some where on the site there a good write up on with a multi- meter on how to
check if the Capac meter is working. AnyWho that’s how I’d do it what do U have to lose with
A/F on it, definitely U R not getting a true reading. When U get to replacing the anodes clean
contact areas good to bare AL. than go with the new recommended amount & see what the
reading show this one time more is better. Good Luck !!!! Whistle

Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Dancing
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
BCassedy
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 11:42:47 AM(UTC)
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Thanks guys.

I'll put on just the recommended amount of anodes:

1 - 3' on each side of the keel
1 - 6" on each rudder
1 - 12" on each trim tab.

I used a sander to take the buildup of crud on the tabs, keel, and tabs down to bright metal. Will follow up with a SS brushing to remove any sanding particles.

Norm, great advice on getting the Capac sensor cleaned up.

If I need to add more anode, I can use the cleaned up old stuff. Back side (to the boat) is in really good shape. Water side was corroded pretty well but it cleaned up well. If I have to add, I should be able to do so fairly quickly with the boat pulled into shore. Just need to have the admiral pull me up if I seem to be stayin' down too long... Whistle

Bill
Bill & Sharon Cassedy
" Sunset Seeker "
1988 32' Fly Bridge
Twin 318 Cu In / 240HP Chrysler power plants
Raw water cooling
Freshwater boat
Barkleydave
#7 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 12:42:54 PM(UTC)
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I use to use Oven Cleaner to remove boat lettering from transoms etc.

You might want to try a small test area but it should cut AF paint without much effort and is not as harsh as other paint removers.


dave
None
Docsnow
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 3:03:56 PM(UTC)
Docsnow

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Bill,

I know this Gunna cause a bit of a stir on the site Whistle BUT if U need more than the recommended amount of anodes the vessel has a electrical leak some where or a ground to hull. Now I’m not saying it’s easy to find cause on my 74 I never found out why could never get it above .09 with all the chasing I did isolating all the normal things & some AB-Normal thingy’s. Now on the 89 F/B sedan when I bought it was on the low side of .09 than did all of the above $hit than hit a half sunk tire (another story) had to have a tranny rebuilt the guy told me about Shaft Savers invested in them fixed 2 problem a slight vibration & the Capac Meter jumped up to 1.0 til the marina waters warm up to the mid to high 70s & slim started to cover the senor but all I had to do is take the soft brush to her bottom & lightly clear it & around it, with in a few hours it’d be back up to par.Dancing So in my HUMBLE all this Magnesium loafs of bread etc are a short term fix. As I’ve said time & again the #3 biggest culprits R shaft isolation, bad wiring @ bilge pump ( take a hint from Diver Dennis’s way to seal bilge butt splices & others splices) & bad shore ground & stray $hit from other boater that’s when a Mag will help out on latter. Ok I’m open to chastising. Boo hoo! AnyWho that’s my ½ pennies worth Dancing Dancing

Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Applause

PS : Dave I've heard of that oven cleaner trick never tried it it might B cheaper than PeelAway Think
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
1 user thanked Docsnow for this useful post.
BCassedy on 6/10/2011(UTC)
fastjeff
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2011 5:59:21 PM(UTC)
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Agreed.

Jeff
"...reality is not nearly as lovely as the world of Liberal Land. No wonder so many people want to go there." - Tom Sowell

Barkleydave
#10 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 7:53:37 AM(UTC)
Barkleydave

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Agreed!

One point if you start with new or clean anodes with great continuity to the hull, and you numbers are good then they slowly slip I have found that I the andoes are loosing continuity with the hull. Thats when the supplimental helps.

The bottom line is: If no corrosion is taking place things are fine in M land.


I also noticed that the new anodes I purchased might not be the same alloy composition as previous ones on the boat. They will also effect the potential.


dave
None
BCassedy
#11 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 11:35:12 AM(UTC)
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I have an educated suspicion on where a (potential) problem may be. Last year, when I pulled the boat and was winterizing it, I found that one of the tranny/shaft coupling bolts had fallen out! Closer inspection showed that none of the bolts had a plastic sleeve over them and each bolt only has/had 1 plastic washer. The absence of plastic tubes and only 1 plastic washer fairly screams that there was electical continuity from the engine/tranny to the shafts. So I'm going to add tubes (using the shrink tubing method I mentioned in another post) and plastic washers on both sides of the coupling's flanges. Finally a continuity check to make sure everything's isolated!

And then I should find the time to complete the anode replacement. Pray
.... and start on the prop replacement.

Bill
Bill & Sharon Cassedy
" Sunset Seeker "
1988 32' Fly Bridge
Twin 318 Cu In / 240HP Chrysler power plants
Raw water cooling
Freshwater boat
Jack Marchand
#12 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 4:15:51 PM(UTC)
Jack Marchand

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Bill, let us know how the shrink tube works, I was just thinking, what happened to your original insulater between the shaft and the tranny? JAM
75 FB express, "Big Enough II" twin 318s, 950hrs, raw water cooling, 1 to 1 transmisions, Beautiful Lake Charlevoix, MI

Docsnow
#13 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 4:50:25 PM(UTC)
Docsnow

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Jack

I can tell U that the shrinkwrap trick works Gre 8 & we can all thank John Simanella for his
contribution of that idea on a hard to find part as the plastic sleeves cause as I’ve found if one gets the ID right than the OD needs work & reversal if the OD is right. Brick wall Whistle

Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Dancing
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
capt. paddwheel
#14 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 6:05:04 PM(UTC)
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Question?
This is my first aluminum hull boat. In my previous life I owned a steel hulled boat. The steel hull boat had welded studs to attach anodes to except the rudders, that was just holes drilled through. In reading this post and some of the others, I am right in assuming my beautiful Interlux 2000 and Pacifica Plus bottom job will now have to sacrifice "x" square inches down to the "shiny" for the entire size of the keel and pancake anodes? Please tell me I bumped my head and misunderstood. I thought I could attached with clean through-holes only for bonding contact. I have a call into the engineer from BoatZincs.com to ask but you guys probably already know the answer. Thanks, Capt. Paddwheel
1992 34' Aft Cabin
Twin 454's
Seaford, DE
Docsnow
#15 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 8:40:25 PM(UTC)
Docsnow

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Capt. P W

I hate to break the bad news to U but U’ll need to be bringing the sander and/or S.S. wire brush outta retirement & at every contact point take it back to the shiny AL Brick wallWhat alotta guys do when prepping the bottom is put about a 1" sq.of masking tape @ each contact spot the rest is history Anxious
Just chalk it up as a “Labor of Love”argh!!


Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Dancing
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
jhemp3
#16 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 7:05:48 AM(UTC)
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I too agree with Norm on the origin of poor isolation. The prop shafts weren't that big of an issue to work out but I'm struggling with the rudder shafts.
Jim
Jim Hemphill
Detour
'87 32' FBS, USCG Certification #1057921
Berthed MM 207 Tennessee River, Picwick State Park Marina
tundrarules
#17 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 1:50:30 PM(UTC)
tundrarules

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Originally Posted by: jhemp3 Go to Quoted Post
I too agree with Norm on the origin of poor isolation. The prop shafts weren't that big of an issue to work out but I'm struggling with the rudder shafts.
Jim


Jim,
Let me know when you solve the riddle on the rudder shaft isolation. I think most have come to the conclusion that there was no isolation from the factory specs. Very much a mystery to meThink .
Here is a pic of mine after pull out. 3 yrs corrosion in freshwater. Not bad, but needs isolation still.
Rudder 1 pic
Rudder 2 pic
Rudder pic 3

Got to isolate the cables at the lower rudder crank assy somehow. Think the fly-bridge models are the only one's with this issue. (Jeff, I know, I know Not talking )Brick wall

If you are at the lake next weekend, let's get together. I will PM my phone number again.

Greg




.
1985 Marinette 29 Sedan bridge
Twin 318s, 660 hours
New Edelbrock 1409 carbs (working like a charm)
Original Electronic Ignition, Blaster 2 coils, 90 deg plug wire universal kit cut to fit
Raw water system
Freshwater always
Located Pickwick Lake, TN,MS,AL


RETRO BOATS ARE COOL

If the guys on this forum take their time to help you, have the courtesy to update your thread with the resolution.
BCassedy
#18 Posted : Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:35:12 AM(UTC)
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Jack,

re: wha' happened to the plastic isolation tubes ...

Anybody's guess. Boat had been sitting in the water at least 3 years before we bought her last June.

I'm heading to the boat today to put on just the proper amount of anodes and do some measuring on the props (want to pull the current ones and put on a spare set). Somewhere I'd read it's possible to pull the props without dropping the rudders. There appeared to be plenty of room to slide the prop off the end of the shaft and clear the front edge of the rudder. My issue is what type of pulley puller I'll need (or what modifications I'll need to make to a standard one) to accomplish this. Won't use heat cuz that'd destroy the bearing in the strut. So it's some kind of shadetree modification that I'll need to use.

Bill
Bill & Sharon Cassedy
" Sunset Seeker "
1988 32' Fly Bridge
Twin 318 Cu In / 240HP Chrysler power plants
Raw water cooling
Freshwater boat
Docsnow
#19 Posted : Sunday, June 12, 2011 11:37:00 AM(UTC)
Docsnow

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Bill,
Have U considered hot ice wrapped around the shaft we’d used the method a few times on stubborn to get off props the hot shrinks the shaft a few .002 than with a stout brass bar give it agood whap to the hub area of the prop. before I built my plate puller pix of the puller are in earlier post I posted a pic of what it looks like ..on the prop clearance if U turn the rudder (I forget which direction off hand) but the shaft is off set just a little of the center of the rudder so I believe it's if U turn lets say the port side so the back end of the rudder is pointing to port this should give U that extra leeway if it’d B nice to have someone on board to turn it the other way just encase I'm having a senior moment Anywho the rudder has to B turned one way or the other. Good Luck with your prop pulling task Applause

PS : B SURE to WEAR gloves if U decide to use the hot ice method Anxious

Norm,

Big BigMs Live On Applause
http://www.picturetrail.com/gid23690601 Try it now there's music to listen to while U view the Big M's

http://www.PictureTrail..../index.php?clubID=20726 this one for the Pix club


 You'll have bad times, but they'll just wake you up to the good times you weren't paying attention to

Some people try to turn back their odometers.Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way.I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
BCassedy
#21 Posted : Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:03:02 PM(UTC)
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Afternoon, folks...

Update (multiple subjects, but they were part of this thread, so here goes...)
With the boat still out of the water:
1. Prop changeout - Starboard was "fall off the bone" easy. Once I took the cotter pin out, unscrewed the castle retaining nut, the prop pretty much slid off the shaft. Not wanting to complain, I changed that side out, tightened up the nut, new SS cotter pin and on to the Port side. Now there it was a bit more challenging. I'd purchased a 6" 3 jaw gear puller and was able to get it attached with the rudder turned full to one side**. Replaced the old prop and buttoned everything up.
** Note - if you want to / need to have the gear puller fit correctly, you could, either with a hacksaw or a cut off
wheel, lop the shaft down to about 3". Grind a square (about 1/2" long) at the newly cut off end. This
should allow for a crescent wrench to be used on the now easily squared to the prop shaft.

2. Anodes - attached the prescribed amount to the trim tabs, rudders. keel. ***

3. CAPAC sensor - as mentioned earlier, I found a small hole in the sensor. A check with a vendor resulted in knowing
no such hole should be there. Gobbed on some aquarium silicone (just enough to cover the hole to
keep out water). Sensor clean.

*** After boat's been in the water...
CAPAC reading at 6.4 . Realize that's not good. Think the doubling of the amount of anode used previously
may have masked a problem.

Believe that the cause may be that the bolts in the tranny / prop shaft aren't isolated and there's direct metal
to metal contact. Will be using 10mm bolts with shrink tubing over them (standard 7/16" bolts w/ shrink tubing
wouldn't fit.). Once all are done, will test.

Bill
Bill & Sharon Cassedy
" Sunset Seeker "
1988 32' Fly Bridge
Twin 318 Cu In / 240HP Chrysler power plants
Raw water cooling
Freshwater boat
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