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AC power away from the dock.....
dougrose
#1 Posted : Wednesday, September 28, 2011 7:50:35 PM(UTC)
dougrose

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I have no generator, and I do not really want to install one. At the same time, I do not really need air conditioning or other heavy, constant loads when away from the dock.

What I would really like to be able to do is heat water for coffee or run the microwave for a few minutes to heat something up. And, it would be very handy if all the lights worked, not just the ones running from the battery. Not to mention the TV. And the fridge.

To do these things, I would like to install an inverter/charger/transfer switch to make ac from the house battery, or to charge the house battery when at the dock. Even if I had a generator, it would be nice to run small ac loads without listening to it.

I have looked at most of the units on the market, and they either don't do all that I want them to do, or they cost a ton of money. I feel that the unit should be rated at 3kW, since our boats are designed with 30A service, should automatically switch off when shore power is applied, and should have useful battery charging capability, at least 50A. I would also want true sine wave, since some loads like electronics may need it, and other loads like motors run much better with it.

I can order a suitable unit from China (forget finding an American made one!) but would need to order a quantity to get what I want at a reasonable price.

My question is, would anyone else be interested in such a unit, for what will probably be around $400? If so, post questions here and I will try to answer them. If there is enough interest, I will arrange a shipment.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
1 user thanked dougrose for this useful post.
Bill on 9/30/2011(UTC)
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75 Express
#2 Posted : Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:17:31 PM(UTC)
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I am interested. How many batteries would be required to run it? I would like to operate a flat screen TV, Microwave and AC refrigerator over the weekend.
Stan
fastjeff
#3 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 5:48:16 AM(UTC)
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Doug:

I run ALL of those AC accessories off my 2KW inverter and 3 to 4 batteries. And get this: The 2 KW rating of the inverter has never been needed--1KW is all I need. Harbor Freight sells ones of that size for about 100 bucks, but they lack a remote ON/OFF switch (which is essential unless the inverter is nearby. Mine is installed in the 'wine cellar' so I need that remote switch.)

The problem with inverters is BATTERY power! Loading up my inverter at 2KW would drain a dozen batteries in nothing flat. So far--though it has 3 LEDS indicating power levels--I've never seen more than one light, even after running down 4 batteries.

A typical overnight consists of sporadic AC refrigerator operation (25 % ON/ 75 % OFF during the day), constant refrigerator ON in the evening with the TV going, meals (toaster oven and low-powered microwave), and coffee in the morning. The refrigerator 'coasts' during the evening.

Three good, fully charged batteries will usually handle that load, with a 4th available if needed (which is often).


Jeff
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Bill on 9/30/2011(UTC)
Docsnow
#4 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 6:25:38 AM(UTC)
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I thought I read on the site awhile ago that someone used golf cart battery’s with very good success Anxious When using a inverter seems reasonable seeing the abuse they get on the courses. Whistle

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Barkleydave
#5 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:40:09 AM(UTC)
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I am using the Xantrex 1800 for past three years hooked up to two six volt Energizer golf cart batteries.

It has an automatic transfer when shore pwr is disconnected. It has a 25 AMP pass through and the unit max out @ 25 amps.

Does not have the charger function but it is available.

Unit is pricey but well built. You can figure another 150 bucks for cables terminals and inline fuse.

It runs all my stuff except it will not run hot water heater for long. There is enough output but the battery voltage will drop quickly to the cutoff with a demand of 1,200 watts. It runs microwave, all 110 lights etc without a problem. I also run may refirg off it. While @ anchor on a warm evening I run lights, computer, three fans, refrig and draw around 14 amps when all are on at same time. Refrig draws approx. 7 amps along. I can run for 18 hrs or more with no problem off the house batteries and start my stbd engine which runs off of the house.

Only problem I have had is once in awhile if it has not been on for a few weeks it can be fussy transfering to the inverter. I found to completely disconnect the shore pwr and turn off the double pole breaker. (do not know why??) After it transfers then it is fine from there on.

The first unit burnt up because the installation instructions were incorrect! They were very helpful and send a new unit immediately and provided the link to the Prosine unit which had the correct wiring diagrams. You need a double pole breaker they breaks the hot and neutrals (which is on our boats) It required in addition to the orginal double pole AC main you need to add the second aux main breaker. The only problem is even when off the shore power runs through the unit. I believe that is required for the unit to sense loss of shore pwr to engage the auto transfer switch in the unit. Here is the link to the Prosine inverter installation instructions for review.

http://www.xantrex.com/d...%20Owner's%20Manual(445-0049-01-01_Rev-B).pdf


Safe Boating,
Dave
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Bill on 9/30/2011(UTC)
yooper
#6 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:32:05 AM(UTC)
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I will never buy any high dollar Chinese stuff again. My Xantrex charger quit. I called the service center. They said the warrenty was up and I was out of luck. I said how much out of my pocket to fix it. They said my unit, a truecharge 40 amp, was not repairable and I should have bought a repairable American brand from a company like Charles. Cheap Chinese stuff from Harbor freight is OK if you don't mind it quiting after one or two projects but high dollar stuff is a no-no. I actually had the U.S. Xantrex service center tell me not to buy that brand.
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Bill on 9/30/2011(UTC)
Barkleydave
#7 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:44:50 AM(UTC)
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Point well taken the reality then becomes:

NO MORE TV
NO MORE COLD BEER
GEE WHAT THE HECK DO WE MAKE IN THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE??

Even the light bulbs on our boats are no longer made in USA!

daveBrick wall
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dougrose
#8 Posted : Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:07:06 PM(UTC)
dougrose

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Wow!

I didn't expect such a response.

Stan, modify this calculation to figure out your power usage:

First, estimate the ac watt-hours to be used each day:

Microwave, coffee: 1500 Watts for 10 min (1/6 hour) = 250 W-hr
TV: 60 Watts for 2 hours = 120 W-hr
Reading Light: 14 Watts for 4 hours = 56 W-hr
Microwave, dinner 1500 Watts for 20 min (1/3 hour) = 500 W-hr
Charger for cellphone, elec toothbrush, etc = 20 W-hr

Total for day: 946 W-hr
Divide by the voltage (120) to get ac Amp-hrs & round up: 8 ac Amp-hr

Next, estimate the DC Amp-hrs required:

Because the Voltage is one-tenth (12 V vs 120 V) it takes 10 times the dc current to give the same power. Further, not all of the dc power becomes ac. An efficiency of 80% is close, probably a little low. The inverter will draw an Amp or so even if there is no ac load.

AC Amp-hr: 8 ac Amp-hr
Multiply by 10: 80 dc Amp-hr
Divide by efficiency, 0.80: 100 dc Amp-hr
Add 24 Amp-hr to keep the inverter lit: 124 dc Amp-hr

Most batteries should not be discharged below 50%, so to last one full day, a 248 Amp-hr battery is required. This is a big one, a size 8D. West Marine recommends 300 Amp-hr for a 35' boat, so this is no surprise. 6 Volt golf cart batteries, in series, will provide 370 or more Amp-hrs at 12 Vdc.

This leaves the problem of charging. A 50 Amp alternator will take 150 minutes to restore the battery, and only if it has a special regulator. Most of us don't run the engine that much, but as I do a lot of overnights with a return to the dock, what I really need is a sizeable charger run by shore power.

Jeff, I knew I could count on you to have already done it. I assume that you are using 75 or 90 Amp-hr batteries, so three of them drained fits my numbers. You are right on about the remote switch -- a remote panel is one of my requirements. Modified Sine Wave inverters are very cheap, and if they do the job they are fine. I would prefer to have a pure sine wave inverter, since I do not really know what fussy loads I might have for it in the future. I chose 3000W because that is what we can get from shorepower, and I have an 1800 watt microwave, 2000 watt stove, and so on.

Docsnow, I know many folks who use the golf cart batteries. They are flooded batteries and must be properly vented to the outside, but they are a great value. If you are going to use two batteries, it is better to have them in series than parallel. I use AGM batteries, which have $ome di$advantage$.

Barleydave, you have also already done it. Xantrex now owns all the inverter companies, but their stuff has a good rep. Except with Yooper.....

Yooper, I know what you mean about non-repairable stuff. The fact is that the Chinese make a lot of it. But there are good manufacturers in China, I dealt with a number of them when I was over there, actually in Thailand - I have never been to the Chinese mainland.

I have been talking to a company that makes UPS systems for industry and I believe that their quality is well above the harbor freight level. Their design is advanced, microprocessor driven and efficient. Service is the problem, and if I do bring in a bunch of these I will need to set up a repair depot here. That means getting schematics and procedures as well as access to parts. I am not sure that I want to do all that, I am after all retired, but I would need to do it for my own unit in any event.

The inverter store sells the AIMS 3000W unit for $800, and a pair of 6 V 245 Amp-hr golf cart batteries will run around $400, plus motor freight. You can likely buy them locally. There are cables and fuses and battery boxes, call it $1400 total. I was hoping to do it for $900 total, maybe that's unrealistic.


1975 32' Flybridge Sedan, twin Perkins 6-354 diesels, 1:1.53 velvetdrives, 16 X 19 props. Merritt Island, Florida
2 users thanked dougrose for this useful post.
Bill on 9/30/2011(UTC), 75 Express on 10/1/2011(UTC)
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