fpmurphy wrote:
JLH : As AMTECH tries to aggressively meet the industry’s needs, we will continue to push for
more reliable testing equipment, including scopes. I hope this gives you some idea of why
equipment such as this has not become an industry main stay, however, in due time I believe
it will. In the meantime, we’ll keep plugging away to provide better service for our
customers.
FM: AMTECH is only one of many marine industry groups. Ask them how many actual members
they have. Most engine technicians prefer manufacturer's certification. It is worth a lot more to a technician than AMTECH
certification. AMTECH certified technicians are not useful to most boatyards. They need technicians certified in specific manufacturer's
engines and systems. An AMTECH technician cannot carry out manufacturers warranty work in most cases.
JLH I am a ME hobbyist and boater, who has undergone a painful Crusader 2007 install with FW Murphy by my boatyard.
FP : Huh? Nothing that you have described so far is the fault of the boatyard you are using.
JLH : Well, I heard back from FWMurphy. It's the software address claim for J1939. The standard versions both attempt to claim 242 and go into a reboot process.
FP: Looks like they did not implement or incorrectly implemented J1939 dynamic address
claiming. In this case FWMurphy could never have had an actual operational version of the
twin engine/twin helm configuration you wish to install on your boat. I may be mistaken
but I was under the impression that this was one of the questions you asked of them before
you committed to the work. It was certainly one of the questions raised on this forum.
To FPMurphy Thanks .... I appreciate the help you have given. It's made a big difference.
First - Yes, AM-Tech is a new organization and like many others, is still growing. I am
becoming aware of the current cert differences, but I see AM-Tech become like the ASE. A
sine qua non for every service tech, you look on the wall for. I've learned not to take
cars to mechanics that don't have an ASE cert. There is a serious workforce shortage of
service technicians in VA and a deep gap is crosstraining and basic support for these guys. The AM-tech group
would also help advise the new Marine Trades workforce developing in Warsaw VA on new
skills. Moreover they are an aligning group (with ABYC) who seek to improve the curricula
and skills sets with shared knowledge of new tools and techniques that no manufacturer would bother with.
A engine manufacturer (even the most conscientious) really only needs (or invests in) a
tech to understand how to use the tools they have, not what they mean, and what to do
beyond that point. A boat yard needs techs with systems of systems skills as general
knowledge (Crusader with Murphy, Yanmar with Lowrance), beyond the experience to principals
and wisdom in these new interdependent systems.
AM-TECH understands that, I go to a boatyard for the total job. Engine and shaft; tranny
and wiring, batteries and electronics; Exhaust and cooling.
- A good fable on quality is John Guaspari's book "I know it when I see it.". In that
fable, a customer is called to come to "Punctuation, Inc." headquarters and names problems
that misidentify who is responsible for problems with the service and manufacturing of
semicolons and exclamation points. Each time the customer is corrected. The customer
responds "Whatever, I know it when I see it".
http://www.amazon.com/Kn...n-Quality/dp/0814477631
Personally Having dealt with NetCentric systems and the unexpected disruptive nature of
this systems engineering in networks melding into systems of systems. I see AM-tech as likely to best approach new interdependency in the engine-electronic-mechanical networks of boats. Another boatyard I've used has all the certs but a lot less of a quality philosophy and ... they know less about engines in general. (I had to explain why a leak down test was needed.)
I could do what many would do, bitch, sue, or leave boating. And they do. In droves.
Second - On Cockrells: The boat yard has been excellent. Myles and his family's
boatyard were excellent. I meant this has been painful for myself and for the boatyard. I just got off the phone telling his wife how much I appreciate Cockrell's Marine Railway. Myles has been honest (with any fault or issue) and has a non blaming attitude. Very nice to work
with. My own wife doesn't understand this as the person in front of me must be to blame, or
more often "all them". Me, I know it when I see it. Also, Myles may have a southern drawl and be fairly young, but he knows boats. This has been incredibly painful for the boatyard as the response expected is way below the support that they get from Cummins.
Myles and his family are very polite and genteel, and have the classic southern quality of
leaving the other guy a chance to save face. He keeps getting asked if he has checked this
or that. Well, when asked he will go back and check, but he is very thorough. He generally
has checked. This politeness has worked against both of us, as he had gotten some
dismissiveness and slow responsiveness.
Any boatyard that still has the same dock in good condition (mostly the same wood) from the 1920's knows how to fix and take care of things.
Second, Yeah... Yes, I did ask about the address claim. Twice. The mess has been between
Murphy and Crusader. I keep getting assured, that this system setup 'has been' installed. I
have been assured recently by Crusader that the parts were on a QA test rack before shipout with the
harness. Murphy has various releases of the software and different releases are on
different systems. (Doesn't really make sense that I'd have a J1939 release for Mann
different from Crusader, but Mann asked for a static address override - a field workaround
really.) I had feared that this would be a problem with the devices. The new software
(though I have not seen it, yet, may have fixed it.) Levi of FWMurphy inc, has been great,
and I would generally recommend FW Murphy as a company that commits to it's products. In
general, their business is not in the control of multiple engines, so using the Powerview
systems as Helmviews really did require more work and testing. I did recommend DakotaSoft
(a forum member) as a good point of contact to FWMurphy. I need to write an J1939
application note for marine systems, that might be in order.
Third ... FP: "AFAIK Crusader is new to J1939." Yeah , got that right. I was (and am still)
bothered by the use of a long run of J1939 canbus in the harness using unshielded twisted
pair and recommending that this harness have a long parallel run in my boat. They seem to have revised the 2008 engine ECU. The Sync and Cruz also doesn't support a dual station option. Seems Crusader is still figuring it all out. ....
Fourth, Never can say thanks enough. I do appreciate all the insights
from you all (esp... FPMurphy and Doug Rose) and they have helped immensely. Thank you....
Fifth, all of parties in this could be doing their part, but quality is total. By that I mean, there remains a gap in service quality. Crusader may be a great company, FWMurphy and Cockrells have been, too but I as the customer see the total. That's a key point of AMTECH. I really want that to develop in VA under the support of the Marine Trades in Rappahannock CC in Warsaw, because I as a boater need better service in order to keep my boat. It's also the only Marine Trade training for pleasure boats. Norfolk focuses on the naval shipyard. I need more reliable service to do those things I don't get time to do. And in a more complex boat, It's harder to get the service I need to stay a boater. RCC had no adult Marine Trade training, and is organizing it.
Lastly, Much of the recent better effort required me to be more active. No owner should expect that their involvement is not a key part of the fix. I learned, don't leave it to the tech. Like anything, results require participation.
Unzinced ships sink at slips. yep
